Taiwan Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Where did I say anything about dual-use for an entire submarine? Quite obviously the European firms would not be asked to build the whole thing but offer technical advice and/or specific components.

That is what I was saying all along. Build it yourself with some outside help.

So then why did the Pentagon authorise the two-stage procurement? I don't believe that it's a case of one hand not knowing what the other was doing, because Taiwan had been asking for a two-stage process in public for some time - even members of Congress had spoken up on the matter. Authorisation would not have been given without top-level approval. In the highly unlikely event someone overstepped their authority, the matter would have been cleared up quickly.

Then why after six years already, nothing has been done about it?

In the meantime, even the intended sub to be procured has gone out of production, replaced by a model that is a few times more expensive. And if the US were to design and build a new diesel boat from scratch (when hell freezes over), the costs would go even higher. What have you budgeted for all that? Everything about this is so in disconnect with reality.
 
D

Deleted member 675

Guest
That is what I was saying all along. Build it yourself with some outside help.

Yes, but I believe as others do that it would be easier for the US to get that outside help than Taiwan.

Then why after six years already, nothing has been done about it?

Please be more specific - you're being too vague.

In the meantime, even the intended sub to be procured has gone out of production, replaced by a model that is a few times more expensive....

Why does it matter that the 209-1400 is no longer in production? German yards were never going to produce the submarine.

What have you budgeted for all that?

What have *I* budgeted? I don't understand. Why do you keep saying "you" all the time as if you're directing comments about Taiwan to me?
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Yes, but I believe as others do that it would be easier for the US to get that outside help than Taiwan.

I kind of doubt that since the US has little self incentive for this. This should be done on Taiwan's own. US blessing is helpful but not necessary.

Please be more specific - you're being too vague.

You don't seem to have any idea when the package was first started, do you?

Why does it matter that the 209-1400 is no longer in production? German yards were never going to produce the submarine.

It does matter because the intended sub Taiwan wanted was the Type 209 and the budget that was originally allocated was for the 209's price.
 
D

Deleted member 675

Guest
You don't seem to have any idea when the package was first started, do you?

I know full well when this all started. You were being too vague when you said "nothing has been done about it". Please be more specific. For example, who has done nothing?

It does matter because the intended sub Taiwan wanted was the Type 209 and the budget that was originally allocated was for the 209's price.

Right, so maybe Taiwan has to pay more now.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
I know full well when this all started. You were being too vague when you said "nothing has been done about it". Please be more specific. For example, who has done nothing?

Both the US and Taiwan has done nothing. The US, due to the nuclear sub faction, is not willing to do design and build new diesel subs on its own but only willing to act as a proxy agent to get other countries to build for Taiwan. But these other countries are not willing. Germany, France and Sweden have formally rejected this outright as soon as the package was announced back then.

And Taiwan for doing nothing in the face of the inevitable obligation---that it will have to do the subs on their own (with some outside below the table assistance if necessary). And for that, years have been lost.


Right, so maybe Taiwan has to pay more now.

They will have to pay a lot more, much more per sub than what they were willing to pay before. Which means they have to go through legislative debates and whatever they have for their shoe throwing circus act in their parliament before they can get it done again.
 
D

Deleted member 675

Guest
Both the US and Taiwan has done nothing.

That's not true. It is correct to say that the project has not progressed that much, but the years have been spent doing something.

The first few years were spent trying to work out a price and what would be offered. That's the fault of the US for not thinking it through properly. Decommissioned Italian submarines were offered, as was a build in South America. US companies have been looking into logistics and the like. And there's also the agreement for the two-stage purchase.

Taiwan has paid sums of money to keep the research office (or whatever it's called) in the US open and the project going. There was a small sum of money for a feasability study in the 2007 budget. Yes, big sums haven't been approved but that's down to politics as I said below.

Which means they have to go through legislative debates

The issue hasn't just been cost. The Taiwanese opposition have even debated the requirement for submarines, saying they're "offensive" weapons and would start an arms race, etc. If the opposition want to play politics they will come up with lots of excuses whether they're reasonable or not. If they agree the submarine purchase is necessary they'll be flexible.
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
A pro ROC friend sent me this very intresting articl;e. If done this would set a precident in the US warship building industry.

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Taiwan Vote May Help EB
Company Could Get Contract To Design Sub
By JESSE HAMILTON | Courant Staff Writer
December 15, 2007

A major committee of the Taiwan legislature this week approved a $62 million spending package for submarine design that could lead to a windfall for Electric Boat in Groton.

It also could lead to the precedent-setting situation of a U.S. company's building submarines for a foreign navy.

Rupert Hammond-Chambers, president of the U.S.-Taiwan Business Council, said Friday that "the odds are pretty high" that the money will survive a pending vote of the overall legislature. Taiwan's Legislative Yuan has final say over the country's spending, and it might release more money for submarine work in 2008.




The United States is the main weapons supplier for Taiwan, a country protected by America but claimed as a wayward province by China. One of the two U.S. submarine builders — Electric Boat or Northrop Grumman in Virginia — would probably get the job of relearning how to build more modern diesel submarines for the small, Asian ally.

"It gets the ball rolling to start design work," said Justin Bernier, who runs Connecticut's new military liaison office. "Electric Boat is home to the nation's full-service submarine design capability. That's a national strategic asset that we need to make sure stays in business. This potential funding could help do that, help keep our guys working on blueprints instead of getting pink slips."

Taiwan has long flirted with the possibility of ordering U.S.-designed subs. President Bush, in his first months in office, offered Taiwan eight yet-to-be-built subs. High costs and a standoff between Taiwan's political parties, however, had locked up expensive weapons purchases for years. But that freeze has thawed unexpectedly, producing this defense budget that also includes Patriot anti-missile systems.

America doesn't actually make diesel subs. It hasn't since nuclear boats took over in the 1950s. But although several other countries manufacture those smaller, cheaper, less-capable submarines, none of them is willing to deal with Taiwan for fear of upsetting China.

As a congressman representing Groton, Rob Simmons, now the state's business advocate, was the leader of the U.S. side's effort to close the submarine deal. Having worked in Taiwan during his years as a CIA operative, Simmons spent time there, too, as a congressman. His last major push — the "Simmons Plan" — was to make the deal more palatable by encouraging Taiwan to pay for the design costs without committing to construction.

The estimated cost for design: $226 million. Although the $62 million approved this week is far short of that, Simmons said Friday, "You can buy a lot of design work with that. That is not a trivial amount."

Although several U.S. defense contractors could be in a position to bid on parts or all of the contract, Simmons said that Electric Boat is "the best." And he supports the idea of it getting into the business of building these smaller submarines powered by diesel and batteries, which Simmons thinks the U.S. Navy should start ordering for itself.

China builds diesels and nuclear subs, he said. "We should be doing the same."

This is the first time in generations that Electric Boat's designers aren't working on the next generation of submarine. That's left the design force trying to scrape by on small jobs. But before Electric Boat would go for the Taiwan work, it would need support from its only customer — the U.S. Navy.

"If the Navy approves it, and the Taiwanese legislature funds it, we are very interested in pursuing that work," said Robert Hamilton, a spokesman for Electric Boat. He called it "a very complementary type of project" to the company's usual nuclear submarine work.

A 2006 letter to Simmons from the deputy secretary of defense said that the Pentagon still supports the president's 2001 proposal to build subs for Taiwan.

In August, Taiwanese legislators and military officials visited the EB factory on the Thames River. Four months later, they are working on what Hammond-Chambers said could be "the most significant budget they've passed in a decade." It came as a surprise to him, especially after being told by Taiwanese legislators in a trip three weeks ago that they were going to reject submarine money.

Although Taiwan can't keep up with a Chinese military that is building weapons at a furious pace, Simmons said that these submarines could be "the perfect defense system for Taiwan." They are stealthy and would be hard to keep track of in their territory beneath the Taiwan Strait.

Taiwan's legislature is expected to finalize this first step within the next few weeks
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
That's not true. It is correct to say that the project has not progressed that much, but the years have been spent doing something.

Doing what?

The first few years were spent trying to work out a price and what would be offered. That's the fault of the US for not thinking it through properly. Decommissioned Italian submarines were offered, as was a build in South America. US companies have been looking into logistics and the like. And there's also the agreement for the two-stage purchase.

I agree that the US is not doing it properly. You have the situation where one hand wants to do something, the other hand wasn't. Check popeye's new article. That's going to rile some USN brass, not as if Electric Boat had some issues with some admirals before in the past (especially with Rickover). Frankly, I would be very surprised if they can design something for 226 million. Projects are rife with massive cost overruns if history is an indication.

Taiwan has paid sums of money to keep the research office (or whatever it's called) in the US open and the project going. There was a small sum of money for a feasability study in the 2007 budget. Yes, big sums haven't been approved but that's down to politics as I said below.

In the meantime that the PRC built and acquired over two dozen subs. Comparisons are valid, because it shows you what one side is doing, and what the other side isn't.


The issue hasn't just been cost. The Taiwanese opposition have even debated the requirement for submarines, saying they're "offensive" weapons and would start an arms race, etc. If the opposition want to play politics they will come up with lots of excuses whether they're reasonable or not. If they agree the submarine purchase is necessary they'll be flexible.

Yet they wanted to build cruise missiles and so on, trying to target mainland cities.
 

Infra_Man99

Banned Idiot
Popeye's article stated Taiwan's legislature is STILL working on a policy to release $63 mil to fund a portion of the submarine design. The news article said Taiwan will reveal their decision about this policy in the next few weeks.

Let us pretend Taiwan's legislature passes this policy and the US government approves of this policy, and when I say the US government, I mean all the involved decision makers say "Yes" to this deal so the deal REALLY happens, not some who say "Yes" and others who say "No" so the deal stays mired. At this rate, Taiwan will get modern submarines at a very slow rate. Let us pretend that Taiwan's currently KMT-favored legislature rejects this policy. Then Taiwan will get modern submarines at a very, very slow rate.

In other words, this 2001 submarine project is still in its infancy as of late 2007. Then there are good possibilities the sub project will be canceled any stage before completion or the sub project will be irrelevant by the time it is complete. My prediction is that Taiwan will get the subs at a very slow rate, so the subs project will be irrelevant by the time of completion (as in limited numbers and adequate technology). This will allow Taiwan to modernize its purely defensive military that continues its dependency on the US military for effective defenses, while allowing Taiwan to improve relations with China.

Taiwan has 3 main military options: (1) reach military equality with China, (2) have a defensive military that makes China's military think at least twice before attacking, or (3) have a defensive military that can hold back China's military long enough for the US military to arrive and lead Taiwan's defenses.

I think the first option is impractical. The second option is possible, but this option is becoming less practical as the years have passed. The third option is Taiwan's best and current choice. Even then, Taiwan is slowly moving away from the third option and slowly moving towards improving relations with China.

How do you see the future of Taiwan's military?
 
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D

Deleted member 675

Guest
Doing what?

Have you tried reading a whole post before replying? Try it - it's a refreshing experience.

Frankly, I would be very surprised if they can design something for 226 million.

I have no idea what the total R&D cost will be, but millions have been quietly spent over the past years so it may not be far off.

In the meantime that the PRC built and acquired over two dozen subs.

So? China was able to buy some of those. For those that it built, how long did it take China to build its own submarine industry? Taiwan needs good submarines in the near future, not in 30 years. If you're still complaining Taiwan should have looked into that decades ago, write a letter to the KMT and ask them why - they were in charge for half a century.

Yet they wanted to build cruise missiles and so on, trying to target mainland cities.

They don't want to target Chinese cities - they would be wasted against them. However, the fact cruise missiles haven't been killed off because they're "offensive" shows the KMT's hypocricy.
 
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