Taiwan Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

Then present a solution, for god's sakes.

Like I said, no matter how difficult it is, they have no other choice.

Surely what the Iranians did is no state of the art, but its still a step, and infinitely admirable than standing there, doing nothing and whining about the situation endlessly.

Negativity never got you anywhere.

crobato said:

Then present a solution, for god's sakes.

Like I said, no matter how difficult it is, they have no other choice.

Surely what the Iranians did is no state of the art, but its still a step, and infinitely admirable than standing there, doing nothing and whining about the situation endlessly.

Negativity never got you anywhere.

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There is no painless way ahead. Every option for Taiwan is fraught with potentially serious problems that are potential killers in any deal. Taiwan is really stuck in a bind regarding this. If Taiwan started building subs today, they run the very real risk that these subs may not be operational a year after they are launched. Then, they are back to square one, which is no new subs to use in case of invasion.

Pointblank said:

There is no painless way ahead. Every option for Taiwan is fraught with potentially serious problems that are potential killers in any deal. Taiwan is really stuck in a bind regarding this. If Taiwan started building subs today, they run the very real risk that these subs may not be operational a year after they are launched. Then, they are back to square one, which is no new subs to use in case of invasion.

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If---IF...

How the heck would you know if you don't try it out yourself.

Be damned for doing something and failing is better than being dammed for doing nothing at all because you think you would fail it anyway.

Its a zero option. Either way you have no subs, but one way gives you a fighting chance.

There can be no success with apathy.

crobato said:

Then present a solution, for god's sakes.

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Invest in the American solution to get submarines quicker. Then once you have a decent number of modern SSKs you can consider the feasability of a long-term domestic programme.

There is no American solution, don't you get it?

The last diesel submarine the US built was prior 1959. We are heading to 2008.

The nuclear submarine faction in the USN has sworn the US will never build, buy nor ever field a diesel sub again, not for anyone. In the past, countries like South Korea, Israel, Australia and Greece has made a request to the US to buy diesel submarines. They all went somewhere else ultimately.

The answer to this situation is simple. Taiwan needs submarines for its defence. They are absolutely necessary. The fact that their navy is without a capable fleet of disel electric boats is, in my view, criminal. Therefore the ROCN has to bite the bullet and, if Japan, Australia or other countries will not sell them diesel electrics (let's face it they're not going to get them from the US, like Crobato said we haven't built them since 1958 and never will again)then Taiwan will, to use a somewhat vulgar American expression "sack up" and build them on their own. Steal blueprints and materials if necessary. But get it done.

Quite agreed.

crobato said:

There is no American solution[]

The last diesel submarine the US built was prior 1959. We are heading to 2008.

The nuclear submarine faction in the USN has sworn the US will never build, buy nor ever field a diesel sub again, not for anyone. In the past, countries like South Korea, Israel, Australia and Greece has made a request to the US to buy diesel submarines. They all went somewhere else ultimately.

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There is one solution, and ultimately one solution only to Taiwan's armaments deficiencies, and that is simply to take the pain to become as self-sufficient as possible. And that means making very difficult decisions as to where to dedicate (not merely allocate), what resources are available to the most necessary armaments: AIP subs, ASW weapons and equipment, fighters, missiles of various descriptions, tanks, artillery/ADA, etc., prioritizing as necessary and providing resources to the extent possible. That may mean developing a domestic submarine-construction capacity while foregoing the same for tanks; the former is more critical than the latter, which may be cheaper and more efficient to procure externally until such time as resources may become available fo those too.

But it is important to point out that for any of this to have born fruit by now, Taiwan would have had to have engaged in this no later than the 1980's, when it was clear that no replacement subs would be forthcoming from the US and Taiwan's other procurement options were steadily being eroded by PRC diplomacy. That said, if Taiwan truly does want to survive, it has no option but to shake itself out of its lethargy and pour substantial, precious resources on a permanent basis into its armaments industry. If the will to survive is seriously lacking, then it will fail to do so and it will be passed by.

Perhaps the single-most powerful demonstration of its determination to persevere would be to take the pain and embark on a forthright national project for constructing its own submarines. Taiwan is not bound to succeed, but it is bound to try.

I heard that some weapons purchase is made due to the amount of kickbacks corrupt officials get. I am wondering how much of corruption opportunity you get from setting up domestic production capability vs purchasing? Is Taiwan heavily affected by this behaviour?

crobato said:

There is no American solution, don't you get it? The last diesel submarine the US built was prior 1959. We are heading to 2008.

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And Taiwan has never built them at all - what's your point?

The nuclear submarine faction in the USN has sworn the US will never build, buy nor ever field a diesel sub again, not for anyone.

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Maybe, but they may not have a choice in the matter. The other countries you mentioned had other options to purchase - Taiwan doesn't. Thus, the White House's 2001 pledge may force the issue if a budget is approved.

If the USN were in control and against SSKs being made in the US it would have agreed to the Taiwan build when originally requested. That the option was refused shows theyre either not in charge or not that concerned about assembly in America.

FuManChu said:

And Taiwan has never built them at all - what's your point?

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The point is that it is as good as time to start.

Maybe, but they may not have a choice in the matter. The other countries you mentioned had other options to purchase - Taiwan doesn't. Thus, the White House's 2001 pledge may force the issue if a budget is approved.

If the USN were in control and against SSKs being made in the US it would have agreed to the Taiwan build when originally requested. That the option was refused shows theyre either not in charge or not that concerned about assembly in America.

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The White House has a pledge to supply Taiwan with subs? The US has a choice. And they're not building any. Otherwise, they would have been already built.

Its been more than fifty years since the last diesel boat was made. And the US will not recreate the Barbel this time if they ever did. They will have to start with a whole new design, and that will take a long time to develop and trial. And what cost? The Taiwan budget was planned for German Type 209 subs, a sub that Germany has long since stopped building in favor of the Type 214, which has become much more expensive (300 million each and rising). A new US made diesel boat will be rife with the typical cost overruns and is going to be even more expensive.

Its very clear what Taiwan has to do, and one thing for sure, it cannot continue to rely on its current policy of apathy, dependency and medicancy.