Taiwan Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

joshuatree said:

We'll most likely agree to disagree but Taiwan still holds a very strategic value in the concept of first island chain. Missile barrages still can't knock of defenses that are well protected deep in bunkers, caves, and mountains. My opinion is that time and closer economic integration will eventually bring the two together in a peaceful manner. But that doesn't mean Taiwan should abandon defenses because the very thought of them having a credible defense is sufficient to deter China from making that mistake of using force. If China goes to a level of flat out annihilation via barrage of missiles, it will invoke a response from the world and the US whether they had wanted to or not.

For Taiwan, working on ballistic missiles of their own and even fielding a few SSBNs would be the ideal counter strike that would nullify the thought that simply being able to establish a beach head on Taiwan means all defenses have been neutralized. Because then the PLA generals have to contemplate the cost of counter missile barrages to Chinese cities. Taiwan doesn't need to develop missiles or subs with ranges that have to be world-wide, just far enough so it's not tied down to the island so any Chinese initial strike won't be able to destroy them.

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Quite obvious that by the time mainland DOES decide to attack Taiwan, any conventional thoughts about inter-strait relations are already invalid. By that time, any attack methods short of nuclear or targetting civilians would be considered normal.

Taiwan's military can run, but they can't hide. How big is Taiwan; not very. How big are their mountain ranges; even smaller. After the PLA lands, they will find any remaining defences or cave systems due to Taiwan's small size. The missile barrages are to ensure the PLA can land with sea and air superiority, not to ensure that the PLA will not encounter any resistance once landed.

China can overwhelm any of the small countries surrounding it including Mongolia, Thailand, Vietnam, Nepal, Bhutan and Laos and yet it does not because it goes against international convention. Should Taiwan abandon its military, which as of now is already quite light on the balance of power, the mainland would still refrain from attacking Taiwan needlessly. The point here is to "reconciliate" not "dictate", Taiwan needs to WANT to be part of the PRC or in extension, the Chinese nation; forcing them would invite chaos and disunity.

Taiwan with SSBNs is the most destabilising act in East Asia since WW2. I assume you just threw the nuclear non-proliferation act out the window Look at inter-strait relations now, Taiwan hasn't been attacked even though it's quite obvious they will be defeated, the mainland is restraining from upsetting the reconciliation process. With or without Taiwan's military, the mainland would not be "making that mistake of using force". If the mainland does attack Taiwan, it would be because they chose to elect another retard like Ah Bien and went along with his/her separatist views.

jobjed said:

When Taiwan needs MBT's to defend against the PLA, then it's already time to wave the white flags. Taiwan has a first line of defence and a last line of defence, which incidentally is the same line; the Taiwan strait. Once the PLA has sea and air superiority, nothing can stop a PLA landing. You can purchase as many Leo 2's or Abrams, but once the PLA lands, the ROC can not possibly match the pure size of the PLA. The PLA can easily utilise civil merchant fleets for landing operations, reinforcement tempo is not a problem once the PLA has sea superiority.

Personally, I think that investment towards the military by the ROC is folly and pretty much irrelevant already. With the advancements in technology by the PLA in cruise missiles and ballistic missiles in recent years, defeating Taiwan is too easy. A barrage of missiles to overwhelm any Taiwan defences and further salvos to destroy all defence installations; war's over.

Yes, Taiwan can spend money to purchase Patriot SAM batteries but the mainland has the capability to manufacture more precision ballistic missiles than Taiwan has missiles, I hope no one's actually suggesting the possibility of a small island being able to defend against a bigger, stronger and more technologically advanced neighbour should the bigger neighbour be committed in invading it; only variables will be the casaulties and methods, but the final outcome is obvious.

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If the ROCN gets new AIP subs, and if it can keep modernizing its air force and navy...and continue building its shelters in the mountains for the aircraft, and secondary landing fields...then it can hold off a Chinese invasion.

Without all of those things, they will lose...but with those things they could make it too expensive for the PRC. At the very least, depending on the US keeping its commitments that are part of US law at this point, they can hold out long enough for a response from the US. The US does not need to defeate the PRC or take the war to the mainland...like Taiwan, they simply have to make sure that the trip across the straits cannot happen.

But...if we go back and forth about an ROC vs PRC conflict, the thread will be locked or closed.

Let's try and keep it to talking about what the ROC is doing with its military, whatever we might think of their ability to stop or impede an invasion.

jobjed said:

Quite obvious that by the time mainland DOES decide to attack Taiwan, any conventional thoughts about inter-strait relations are already invalid. By that time, any attack methods short of nuclear or targetting civilians would be considered normal.

Taiwan's military can run, but they can't hide. How big is Taiwan; not very. How big are their mountain ranges; even smaller. After the PLA lands, they will find any remaining defences or cave systems due to Taiwan's small size. The missile barrages are to ensure the PLA can land with sea and air superiority, not to ensure that the PLA will not encounter any resistance once landed.

China can overwhelm any of the small countries surrounding it including Mongolia, Thailand, Vietnam, Nepal, Bhutan and Laos and yet it does not because it goes against international convention. Should Taiwan abandon its military, which as of now is already quite light on the balance of power, the mainland would still refrain from attacking Taiwan needlessly. The point here is to "reconciliate" not "dictate", Taiwan needs to WANT to be part of the PRC or in extension, the Chinese nation; forcing them would invite chaos and disunity.

Taiwan with SSBNs is the most destabilising act in East Asia since WW2. I assume you just threw the nuclear non-proliferation act out the window Look at inter-strait relations now, Taiwan hasn't been attacked even though it's quite obvious they will be defeated, the mainland is restraining from upsetting the reconciliation process. With or without Taiwan's military, the mainland would not be "making that mistake of using force". If the mainland does attack Taiwan, it would be because they chose to elect another retard like Ah Bien and went along with his/her separatist views.

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Like I said, we'll just agree to disagree, when you need to start emphasizing in bold and feeling a little sore about what I consider a strategic mistake, we know the conversation won't get far. And for the record, I'm no Taiwan separatist. I just view a different approach. I said SSBNs but no where did I say nuclear tipped missiles, just a viable platform for survival of a counter force, since you feel an island itself provides no defensive depth, the big blue Pacific will.

Soldiers operate M60A3 tanks during a military exercise at the Hualien army base in eastern Taiwan January 23, 2013. Reuters/Pichi Chuang

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If the PRC thinks it it necessary to act against Taiwan it can declare its ports and airports closed, meaning that ships and aircraft using those (air)ports will not be insured. It can arrest such ships and aircraft whenever they get within reach. This means no more oil supply, no more import and export of containers.
Because that it clear to all concerned there will be no opportunity to act this out. All talk about invading and defending Taiwan will remain fantasy. There will in the end be a political solution.

jobjed said:

Quite obvious that by the time mainland DOES decide to attack Taiwan, any conventional thoughts about inter-strait relations are already invalid. By that time, any attack methods short of nuclear or targeting civilians would be considered normal.

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Indeed, the Chinese Civil war from 1946 to 1949 is extremely brutal. And any renewed conflict will be just that. The idea that if conflict does start, China will just launch a missile attack and issue a half-heart blockade or may be a half-heart landing then stop when the Americans arrive is just absurd. (Though a lot of strategist in the West think this way, I don't why... Maybe copy and paste Soviet tanks over Falda gap scenario into East Asia?)

In case of Taiwan independence, China will either choose to live the consequences and face a backlash at home or choose to enter into the conflict. If China does enter into conflict, all options will be on the table including possible nuclear exchange and end human civilization as we know today. None of this will be decided by what little military hardware Taiwan choose to acquire, the only deciding factor is whether America will enter into the war and if so how deep will they go.

There will in the end be a political solution.

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I actually think the leaders in China like the status quo even more than those in Taiwan. Any sort of political integration (even on PRC's terms of one country two systems) with Taiwan will introduce constitutional and political instability in China that one party rule may not hold. Thus unless there is major change of political system in China, there will be no political solution, because the current situation is the preferred arrangement for BOTH sides.

delft said:

If the PRC thinks it it necessary to act against Taiwan it can declare its ports and airports closed, meaning that ships and aircraft using those (air)ports will not be insured. It can arrest such ships and aircraft whenever they get within reach.

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If China has that much power, why doesn't it just order the US not to sell arms to Taiwan or order all the countries in the world to close their de-facto embassies? You're suggesting that China has the power to do what it wants, when it wants - but doesn't. I don't believe that.

Now as I think someone else suggested, why not get back to the issue of military news. I'm sure we could argue until we're blue in the face about what would happen if China wanted to press the issue of unification. What would the point in that be?

News from Dec 2012 -- considering what a typical military program cost over-run is like these days, going from 800 million to 1.23 billion can be considered "getting off light". X_X

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The price for further maintenance of Taiwan’s sole early warning radar (EWR) program just went through the roof. The Pentagon announced an additional maintenance contract on December 7 worth a whopping $290 million. Given the fact that the original price for construction of the EWR on Taiwan’s west coast was only $800 million, Taiwan legislators have already complained bitterly of extensive overruns hitting $1.23 billion.

The Raytheon built facility is designed to warn of an initial missile and air strike from China, which is aiming 1,500 short-range ballistic missiles at Taiwan.

The construction of the radar facility was delayed by mudslides on Leshan Mountain and further unspecified delays pushed costs up. The additional increase will no doubt upset many within Taiwan’s legislature and military who have been pushing for an increase in the defense budget to cover costs of paying for $18 billion worth of arms procured from the U.S. since 2007.

The list is extensive: AH-64 Apache attack helicopters, Patriot Advanced Capability 3 (PAC-3) missiles, P-3C Orion maritime patrol aircraft, UH-60M Blackhawk utility helicopters, F-16A/B upgrade package for 145 fighters, Osprey-class mine hunting ships, AMRAAM missiles, SM-2 Block IIIA Standard air-defense missiles for Kidd-class destroyers, Harpoon anti-ship missile, etc.

See Shirley Kan’s most recent report on Taiwan’s arms procurement programs in her new report: Taiwan: Major U.S. Arms Sales Since 1990.

“However, Taiwan complained of mistrust, delays, and price increases for the SRP (and other programs). The U.S. Air Force unexpectedly asked Taiwan to agree to two revised Letters of Offer and Acceptance for two additional payments of about $141 million (requested in December 2007 to cover costs in disaster response) and about $56 million (requested in June 2009 to enhance anti-tampering). In 2011, Raytheon requested a third increase of about $200 million. While officials in Taiwan, including in the LY and Taiwan’s military, expressed frustration at the extra U.S. demands, they said they remained committed to the SRP.”

Below is the original DoD December 7th announcement:

Raytheon Co., Sudbury, Mass., (FA8730-13-C-0003) is being awarded a $289,458,942 cost-plus-fixed-fee, firm-fixed-price, cost reimbursement contract for follow-on sustainment support of the Taiwan Surveillance Radar Program. The location of the performance is Taiwan. Work is expected to be completed by Nov. 8, 2017. The contracting activity is AFLCMC/HBNA, Hanscom Air Force Base, Mass. Contract involves foreign military sales to Taiwan.

US think tank head urges Taiwan to cut military power against China

Interesting opinion !!!!!


US Center for National Policy Scott Bates said that Taiwan should cut half of its military forces against China, the China Times reported on Jan. 26.

China Times did not reveal when Bates made the remarks but reported that the Washington-based think tank head also recommended Taiwan to continue to increase its air and navy forces.

In response, spokesman for Taiwan's Ministry of National Defense Lo Shao-ho said that Bates' remarks will not change anything regarding the nation's policies for national security.

"The reason for the military forces to exist is to secure our homeland and maintain national interests. While China continues to increase its military power, it is necessary for us to do so, in order to maintain the peace over the Taiwan Strait," Lo said.

Bates suggested Taiwan to cut the total amount of soldiers from 130,000 to 65,000 and "make a solemn pledge that in the event of hostilities, [it] will never conduct any military action on the shores of China. Even if attacked by the Chinese, Taiwan would only defend itself." If Taiwan's navy and air force continues to increase in strength and capability, China would have to think before leaping into a strike against Taiwan because Taiwan may be able to win sympathy from the majority of Chinese people, now that it does not regard China as an enemy.

"It is necessary to tell the opponent that it will cost a lot to strike against Taiwan," Bates said.

Joseph Bosco, an expert for Asia security, rebutted Bates' remarks. He said that Bates was requesting Taiwan not to fight back against the invader and "it is against the logic to warn the potential enemy prior to an actual fight."

Re: US think tank head urges Taiwan to cut military power against China

antiterror13 said:

Interesting opinion !!!!!

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US Center for National Policy Scott Bates said that Taiwan should cut half of its military forces against China, the China Times reported on Jan. 26.

China Times did not reveal when Bates made the remarks but reported that the Washington-based think tank head also recommended Taiwan to continue to increase its air and navy forces.

In response, spokesman for Taiwan's Ministry of National Defense Lo Shao-ho said that Bates' remarks will not change anything regarding the nation's policies for national security.

"The reason for the military forces to exist is to secure our homeland and maintain national interests. While China continues to increase its military power, it is necessary for us to do so, in order to maintain the peace over the Taiwan Strait," Lo said.

Bates suggested Taiwan to cut the total amount of soldiers from 130,000 to 65,000 and "make a solemn pledge that in the event of hostilities, [it] will never conduct any military action on the shores of China. Even if attacked by the Chinese, Taiwan would only defend itself." If Taiwan's navy and air force continues to increase in strength and capability, China would have to think before leaping into a strike against Taiwan because Taiwan may be able to win sympathy from the majority of Chinese people, now that it does not regard China as an enemy.

"It is necessary to tell the opponent that it will cost a lot to strike against Taiwan," Bates said.

Joseph Bosco, an expert for Asia security, rebutted Bates' remarks. He said that Bates was requesting Taiwan not to fight back against the invader and "it is against the logic to warn the potential enemy prior to an actual fight."

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Cutting ground forces isn't the same as cutting the military as a whole.