Syria Shoots Down Turkish Fighter Jet

funny how everyone is pointing fingers at Turkey and quick to jump on the bandwagon when it comes to Syria issue

I don’t see anyone speak against Iran

ever since the 48 “pilgrims” been arrested Iran has continued to change its story, first they were pilgrims then they were ex-revolutionary guards, then they became Iranian citizens working on a power plant and now they are back to being “pilgrims” again, such hypocrisy

Asads phone has been tapped and he talks to Iranian leaders all the time for advice on how to kill his own people

and about the Kurds, who have they ever got along with, did they get along with Saddam? Did they ever even get along with the current Iraqi government, they don’t get along with Iraq, Iran, Syria and Turkey, all they want is trouble, they sided with Iran during Iran-Iraq war then they switched to attacking Iran and plotting bombs in Iran during the 1990s?? they want a homeland fine, you have Northern Iraq you can even take the oil and gas and keep it for yourself, but no that’s not enough they want Southern Turkey is well, all they ever do is play victim, and as if that wasn’t enough they now started bombing inside Turkey, they will never be happy

If Kurds are displaced then give back Crimea to Tartars, they were deported from there in 1942 to Central Asia by Stalin, give back all the villages and towns around the Black Sea to Turkey because that was part of the Khans Khanate, what about Kazans and their deportation to Siberia, but no lets just pick on the Turks and pin the Armenian genocide on them shall we

You cant have one rule for yourself and another rule for everyone else, Turkey is going 100% correct and whatever they do is right, they have taken on more Syrian refugees than any neighbouring country, and the rebels aren’t even that well armed, poor people don’t even have ATGM or MANPADs, are using timers on artillery shells to use as IEDs

Turkey is not afraid, if they want they can smash their way through to Damascus in 24 hours, and if they don’t stop they can march all the way to Jerusalem and Pakistan will back Turkey all the way just like we did in Bosnian campaign in 1999

i.e. said:

Incomprehensiable and stupid. Assad goes down fighting and Syria will erupt into a sectarian hell storm. Syria goes down so does Lebenon may be. who knows may be Kurds in Northern Iraq think its their chance. and go for a land grab and statehood. Saudis is risking Regional war here by destabilziing Syria.

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The Assads seem to employ old family recipes. The clan has been in power for a long time and faced similar challenges before. As long as they are able to hold the airspace, they stand pretty good chances to win the ground war with any means, tested in action by veterans of today's conflict. The sectarian violence makes it increasingly difficult to swim like fish in the water - as a result, the "rebels", from wherever they are, have to pay more dear in blood and their supporters in treasure. Sectarian violence is a deliberate choice, so it's possible that the operation is about a quagmire that captures attention.

asif iqbal said:

funny how everyone is pointing fingers at Turkey and quick to jump on the bandwagon when it comes to Syria issue

I don’t see anyone speak against Iran

ever since the 48 “pilgrims” been arrested Iran has continued to change its story, first they were pilgrims then they were ex-revolutionary guards, then they became Iranian citizens working on a power plant and now they are back to being “pilgrims” again, such hypocrisy

Asads phone has been tapped and he talks to Iranian leaders all the time for advice on how to kill his own people

and about the Kurds, who have they ever got along with, did they get along with Saddam? Did they ever even get along with the current Iraqi government, they don’t get along with Iraq, Iran, Syria and Turkey, all they want is trouble, they sided with Iran during Iran-Iraq war then they switched to attacking Iran and plotting bombs in Iran during the 1990s?? they want a homeland fine, you have Northern Iraq you can even take the oil and gas and keep it for yourself, but no that’s not enough they want Southern Turkey is well, all they ever do is play victim, and as if that wasn’t enough they now started bombing inside Turkey, they will never be happy

If Kurds are displaced then give back Crimea to Tartars, they were deported from there in 1942 to Central Asia by Stalin, give back all the villages and towns around the Black Sea to Turkey because that was part of the Khans Khanate, what about Kazans and their deportation to Siberia, but no lets just pick on the Turks and pin the Armenian genocide on them shall we

You cant have one rule for yourself and another rule for everyone else, Turkey is going 100% correct and whatever they do is right, they have taken on more Syrian refugees than any neighbouring country, and the rebels aren’t even that well armed, poor people don’t even have ATGM or MANPADs, are using timers on artillery shells to use as IEDs

Turkey is not afraid, if they want they can smash their way through to Damascus in 24 hours, and if they don’t stop they can march all the way to Jerusalem and Pakistan will back Turkey all the way just like we did in Bosnian campaign in 1999

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Asif, I do not think anyone has questioned Turkeys capabilities in any way. The thing we question is the stance it has taken and the total abandonment of its "Zero problems with the neighbours policy" to one that has seriously upset all of them.

Why did Turkey betray the trust of the friendly government in Syria and start allowing the sanctuary, equipping and training of rebels and militants on its territory and allow them to cross back and forward across the border without restraint?

Why does Turkey seek close relations with the Asian Powers and ask to join their organisations and then take the lead in attacking their geopolitical interests?

I think Turkey has to make its mind up as to where is sees its future interests lie. Clearly it cannot sit on the fence and try and keep a foot in each camp.

Turkish complicity goes far beyond setting up sanctuaries in Turkey for Syrian rebels (a great many of the anti-government forces in Syria are no longer Syria btw, there are Iraqis, Chechens, Libyans and many other nationalities mixed in) and turning a blind eye to what they are doing in those santuaries. It is pretty much an open secret that Turkish special forces are training the rebels and arming them.

That is a gross violation of the sovereignty of its neighbour and could easily amount to an act of war on Syria.

Asif, your loyalty to Turkey is admirable, but you should not allow that to blind you to the wrongs Turkey is doing.

You have got it all wrong again

Erdogan is a very good person, he stands for justice and peace in the region, his policies are always putting the people first and he never backs down when push comes to shove over issues that relate to the region as a whole

In 2004 Bashar Al-Assad was invited to Turkey by Erdogan, he asked Assad to visit his friendly neighbour and he also promised that he will do everything to help Syria re-integrated into the world community, Assad never goes anywhere but Erdogan pleaded with him to visit Turkey and so in 2004 President Bashar al-Assad arrived in Turkey for the first official visit by a Syrian President in 57 years!!! In late 2004, Erdoğan signed a free trade agreement with Syria. The visa restrictions between the two countries have been lifted in 2009, which caused an economic boom in the regions near the Syrian border

With iraq Under Erdoğan, Iraq and Turkey signed 48 trade agreements by the Iraqi-Turkish Strategic Council in Baghdad. Agreements signed included sectors of security, energy, oil, electricity, water, health, trade, environment, transport, housing, construction, agriculture, education, higher education, and defense. The Turkish government mended relations with Iraqi Kurdistan by opening a Turkish university in Arbil, and a Turkish consulate in Mosul. Abdullah Gül became the first Turkish head of state to visit Iraq in 33 years, on 23 March 2009

Then when in spring of 2011 when Syrian uprising happened, Erdogan called Assad and pleaded with him not to use force on the protesters, he even told him if they need riot equipment Turkey will help in supplying them, but under no circumstance use live ammunition of protesters, they are just peaceful protests and will not use any weapons, and what did Assad do, he sent in Syrian Military Snipers to kill women and children, then Erdogan said to Assad if he continue this action he will not back Assad anymore, in return Syria killed and shot at Turkish border guards who were helping Syrian refugees, Erdogan still had patience and Syria shot down F4 fighter jet

So now Turkey is annoyed, they trusted Assad and they relied on him, they thought they had a understanding but Assad let Turkey down, Turkey even pushed the US out of the issue and asked to be the one who mediates the talk with Assad, Assad has refused point blank

So now Assad will pay the price for his crimes

I have no loyalty to Turkey nor does Turkey have any loyalty to us, it is time tested friendship which requires support, support which has worked both ways for decades infact century’s, anyone who is Turkish will know, that it is in Turkish curriculum they are taught at school from the age of 4 years old they have only one friend, that is Pakistan, why? Because the people from this region travelled to Turkey to fight for Turkish independence in 1924 which is modern day Turkey, this is why we have Ataturk Avenue as our main street in our Capital city Islamabad, where there is Turkey behind is Pakistan with full support and vice versa no questions asked

Even regardless of our friendship Turkey is still correct in its actions

Can we agree with Asif that Turkey's actions appear a reply to a Syrian denial to play by the rules set by Turkey in their domestic conflict, using the old Assad playbook instead? So Turkey has a justification. That doesn't mean her acts appear to be right to others (including most on this forum).

If Turkey bandwaggons in the Asian camp they are no longer that noticeable, an act of balance between camps is necessary to be noticed in diplomacy and make it obvious that Turkey is the most mighty Turk nation. The post Cold War reorientation of Turkey towards reestablishing connections and great power status are sorely neglected by many observers. Look at the secret operations front of WWI and you can see many templates of current Turkish acts for a similar goal.

Kurt said:

Can we agree with Asif that Turkey's actions appear a reply to a Syrian denial to play by the rules set by Turkey in their domestic conflict, using the old Assad playbook instead? So Turkey has a justification. That doesn't mean her acts appear to be right to others (including most on this forum).

If Turkey bandwaggons in the Asian camp they are no longer that noticeable, an act of balance between camps is necessary to be noticed in diplomacy and make it obvious that Turkey is the most mighty Turk nation. The post Cold War reorientation of Turkey towards reestablishing connections and great power status are sorely neglected by many observers. Look at the secret operations front of WWI and you can see many templates of current Turkish acts for a similar goal.

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To a degree I suppose, certainly to offer refuge to civilians fleeing the fighting, but I do wonder if the Turkish response has gone "beyond and above the call of duty". I think the only thing that would make sense to me, would be a Turkish dread of the consequences of a long drawn out affair that left them with large number of restive Syrians Sunni's within Turkish borders and a increased level of unrest in the region, especially among the Kurds.
If then Turkey decided that its best interest was a short sharp change at the top in Syria, over before too many Syrians were not only discomforted by the violence, but had time to become used to feeling uncomfortable, then I can understand and sympathise with their predicament. I think that would also nicely dovetail with your point about Assad not reacting in accordance with the Turkish rulebook and Turkey being very sensitive about being seen as ambivalent about the advice of the book being declined.

I think though that this is now simply an academic point as the short sharp change is not going to happen and the "coup de grace" which would have brought the troubles to a conclusion has not worked, with the rebels now holed up in Aleppo and clearly being annihilated. In short the situation is now happening that they embarked upon their current strategy in the hope of avoiding. It is now for all interested and active parties to take stock and reconsider their positions.

I think it is no coincidence that Iran called an emergency International Conference on Syria which took place today in Tehran.


29 Countries (including the host) attended: "Representatives of different world states, including Russia, China, Belarus, Mauritania, Indonesia, Kyrgyzstan, Georgia, Turkmenistan, Benin, Sri Lanka, Ecuador, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Algeria, Iraq, Zimbabwe, Oman, Venezuela, Tajikistan, India, Kazakhstan, Armenia, Nicaragua, Cuba, Sudan, Jordan, Tunisia and Palestine at the level of three foreign ministers, two acting deputy ministers, 7 deputy ministers, 15 ambassadors and also the UN envoy to Tehran are attending the meeting."

That is quite a turn out and a real shame that Turkey was not in attendance as it shows them at odds with the vast bulk of Asia, including nearly all the other Turkic states of Central Asia. Given the weight of the influence which has been brought to bear to try and Isolate both Syria and Iran, I think that so many countries would go to Tehran over this issue and show support for the Iranian position is a significant event in its own right and sends a highly unambiguous statement.

More interestingly again is that this seems to be an opening event for an August and September of regional events in which the Saudis and Iranians seem to be seeking a new rapprochement with each other. This suggests a major change in Riyadh and rather supports the notion of radical changes at the top, in line with the rumours of the demise of Prince Bandar Bush.

Could it be that Turkey is interested in SCO because of the Turkic central Asia states in the organisation?
In other words Turkey is seeking to become a leader amongst these states under the broader SCO network.

I wonder if Turkey will eventually try to form its own alliance of some sort with the central asian states. The SCO might just be a test in the waters. Turkey is trying to extend feelers in all directions at the same time to see where they can have the greatest influence, also a little publicity in making yourself heard more often in the international stage might help.

We see they looked at joining NATO, then they looked at SCO, then now they might try to see their influence in the middle east. They are trying to feel in all directions.

no_name said:

Could it be that Turkey is interested in SCO because of the Turkic central Asia states in the organisation?
In other words Turkey is seeking to become a leader amongst these states under the broader SCO network.

I wonder if Turkey will eventually try to form its own alliance of some sort with the central asian states. The SCO might just be a test in the waters. Turkey is trying to extend feelers in all directions at the same time to see where they can have the greatest influence, also a little publicity in making yourself heard more often in the international stage might help.

We see they looked at joining NATO, then they looked at SCO, then now they might try to see their influence in the middle east. They are trying to feel in all directions.

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I think the Turks will fail at exerting their influences around and will eventually have the Kurdish issue blow up in their faces.

asif iqbal said:

You have got it all wrong again
...

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I am sure people has good intentions and Assad is a bad person etc.
but,
I come from 2 guiding principles. both of which, when upheld has yielded long term peace and whenever violated seems to unleash vast chaos in the world.
first is the notion of respect for one's sovereignty, this means other countries should not be meddle in other country's internal affairs, even if they are doing nasty things to eachother inside of that border. yes, this is an old westaphilian and out of fashion, but it has served world well espeically when upholding peace when a larger state start to bullying small state. that means for mid sized states like Saudi ( or Pakistan) , It's may be that today a great power (nato, UK, US) is on your side to intervene but what about when they want to intervene inside of your country and make their wishes true? that last firewall which is the respect for sovereignty, which is btw enshrined in UN Charter, you just help to take down. Intervention will become a international norm (it already has become, post cold war) and when that last shred of figleaf falls (which I am afraid is very soon), then the world will be truly a predatory world. where "the powerful do what they can the weak suffer what they must"... is this the world you want to live in?


second is the notion of utilitarianism... greatest good for greatest number, which in this context greatest good comes from having least number of people killed in this civil conflict. even if this means somehow the distasteful assad regime survives, so be it. I do not pretend that I will understand every aspect of the problem but one thing I understand is if assad is gone at this very moment, I am not sure that syria will have a good mid term outcome. its minorities will get slaughtered or force to become refugees.
For all the talks of a International Humanitarian intervention etc, I have had a talk with a Prominent western Human Rights lawyer once (who actually was prosecuting a dictator at that time), and to much of my surprise he told me that, Sovereignty and human rights do not oppose to each other, Greatest advances in human rights has came from stable states with its Sovereign respected, and greatest setbackss is when Sovereign is violated (Interstate War, and weak and debilitated staets in its afterwards.).

given these two guiding principles, I found much of west (and frankly sunni middle east) attitude towards the syrian situation utterly short sighted and exasperatingly stupid.