Syria Shoots Down Turkish Fighter Jet

asif iqbal said:

Israel killed the Turks when they didnt know they were Turkish, had Israel known who were onboard they would never have opened fire

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Is that why the Israelis refused to even apologize to Turkey after the killings?

Israel recognises all genocides and killings throughout the world, but the refuse Armenian Genocide, you know why? cus it will annoy the Turks really bad and that is something Israel cant afford, Israel knows its existance relys upon peace with one country and that is Turkey, this is why Israel is so friendly with them, on the other hand Turkey knows that it is the muslim country that recognises Israel, and for that it has huge influence

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Israel replies on only one nation for it's existence and that country isn't Turkey, it's the USA. Turkey is enormously important to Israel, but let's not exaggerate just how important it is. For one thing, Israel would never have refused to apologize if it had been US citizens it killed during the Gaza flotilla storming, and they would never have allowed relations with the US to fall into the kind of lows they had with Turkey in the aftermath of that incident, which can still be felt today.

Turkey even offered to mediate the enrichment process for Iran because they always try and make peaceful resolution for everyone in region

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They did this out of the goodness of their hearts and had no self-serving motives for doing so? Like boosting their international image and diplomatic profile? Come on buddy, you must know that no country is so nice and self-less.

Turkey is playing the frontline in rebuilding Iraq, have you seen Sulimaniya or Irbil? Kurdistan is getting billions in FDI from turkey for rebuilding entire Northern Iraq, Turkey construction companys making roads to Turkish Banks giving generous loan terms

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Again, can you see no additional benefit Turkey would derive from such generosity? Would such moves not help them to boost their influence and maybe help improve relations with the Kurds?

It is curious that you cannot see that the examples you have listed perfectly illustrate Turkey's recent attempts to expand their influence and national power as well as to try to help resolve their own domestic national issues. Sure there is of course and element of ultraism in many of the things they do, but it would be naive and wrong to think that Turkey derives no benefit themselves from their actions.

Your understanding of Turkey is flawed, and if it is based on Turkish support for North Western Muslims in China then that’s have political agenda which I will not engage in

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That is a wrong assumption.

I am not even aware that Turkey has ever offered any support for "North Western Muslims in China", I am aware that Erdogan made some extremely ill-advised comments about 'genocide' following the ethnic unrest in Xinjiang, but he quickly offered a full apology after a quiet meeting with Chinese officials.

That incident alone is not enough to tint my feelings towards Turkey or it's people, indeed I have some Turkish friends and I know the culture well.

My personal feelings towards Turkey and the Turks in general is neutral, leaning on the positive. But that does not mean I cannot see the self-interest in their international actions and the failings they are making in both domestic and international relations as well as their triumphs.

I have no reason to love or hate the Turks, but you obviously have very fond feelings towards them. Objectively speaking, who amongst us is more likely to be influenced by our personal opinions and feelings my friend?

plawolf said:

Is that why the Israelis refused to even apologize to Turkey after the killings?



Israel replies on only one nation for it's existence and that country isn't Turkey, it's the USA. Turkey is enormously important to Israel, but let's not exaggerate just how important it is. For one thing, Israel would never have refused to apologize if it had been US citizens it killed during the Gaza flotilla storming, and they would never have allowed relations with the US to fall into the kind of lows they had with Turkey in the aftermath of that incident, which can still be felt today.



They did this out of the goodness of their hearts and had no self-serving motives for doing so? Like boosting their international image and diplomatic profile? Come on buddy, you must know that no country is so nice and self-less.



Again, can you see no additional benefit Turkey would derive from such generosity? Would such moves not help them to boost their influence and maybe help improve relations with the Kurds?

It is curious that you cannot see that the examples you have listed perfectly illustrate Turkey's recent attempts to expand their influence and national power as well as to try to help resolve their own domestic national issues. Sure there is of course and element of ultraism in many of the things they do, but it would be naive and wrong to think that Turkey derives no benefit themselves from their actions.



That is a wrong assumption.

I am not even aware that Turkey has ever offered any support for "North Western Muslims in China", I am aware that Erdogan made some extremely ill-advised comments about 'genocide' following the ethnic unrest in Xinjiang, but he quickly offered a full apology after a quiet meeting with Chinese officials.

That incident alone is not enough to tint my feelings towards Turkey or it's people, indeed I have some Turkish friends and I know the culture well.

My personal feelings towards Turkey and the Turks in general is neutral, leaning on the positive. But that does not mean I cannot see the self-interest in their international actions and the failings they are making in both domestic and international relations as well as their triumphs.

I have no reason to love or hate the Turks, but you obviously have very fond feelings towards them. Objectively speaking, who amongst us is more likely to be influenced by our personal opinions and feelings my friend?

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Has Israel ever apologised to any nation? Did it even apologise to the Americans for the USS Liberty incident, when USN sailors were in life boats and had visual on the Israeli gunboats who opened fire at point blank range, or did they apologise when a F16 dropped a 1000lb bomb on a residential area killing 34 children in 2008

They offered compensation and they did that to Turkey also, Erdogan infront of the worlds media at Davos taunted Shimon and stormed off, did he even speak back, did Israel even withdraw ambassador, no they didn’t because they know they loose Turkey they loose Jerusalem

Turkey has never killed its own citizens by bombing them and sending in army to towns and villages and burn houses, Syria and Asad have, Syria is wrong there is no question about that

Turkey is a long standing allied of Pakistan as is China, both have helped Pakistan in time of need, from Turkish nurses who treated Pakistani soldiers in 1965 to the technician’s who helped integrate American sidewinders to Chinese built F6 fighter jets, same way Chinese built Karakorum highway in 1970s when it had little economic purpose in the process losing many workers for a link to Pakistan, these are qualities of good people and it does not suite us to be pointing fingers at each other, we have enough enemy’s as it is

So it is disappointing when we see 2 close allied nations who have mis-understandings , just like we did mediate Nixons visit in 1972 which opened the door to modern day China, Pakistan supports both nations in whatever and whenever the need arises, Turkey is a role model for modern day Muslim country’s with its secular ideology balanced with its deep rooted Islamic culture and rising economic power

I have to say that I find the current position of Turkey under Mr Erdogan utterly incomprehensible and I say that without any joy what so ever!

Two years ago I though Turkey was forging a truly distinguished path in relation to its neighbours and playing a central role in regional consolidation and stability. I just cannot understand why they would throw this away in such spectacular fashion and for so little if any tangible gain.

It is simply bizarre. Just over a week ago, Turkey actually made a public request via Russia for SCO membership


The offer is to be welcomed and encouraged without doubt, but it is asking at a time when its policy over Syria ( a critical Geopolitical hot potato for the organisation) is wholly incompatible with the settled policy of the main SCO members??!!

If Turkey is serious it needs to stop playing with fire and come over fully into the SCO camp and return to playing a constructive role in the region, rather than its current destabilising one.

what has Turkey done that is so destabilizing? what do you expect it to do with regards to Syria, everyone seems to be complaining about Turkeys role in the whole matter but no one yet has said what they expect from Turkey? are we just blaming for the sake of blaming because that will get us nowhere

asif iqbal said:

what has Turkey done that is so destabilizing? what do you expect it to do with regards to Syria, everyone seems to be complaining about Turkeys role in the whole matter but no one yet has said what they expect from Turkey? are we just blaming for the sake of blaming because that will get us nowhere

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How does Turkey treat the Kurds? Have any mainstream media openly criticized this American ally like they have been doing with China? The Turkish being nice to Pakistanese doesn't mean it treats their own Kurds the same way.

Hopefully, the Kurds creating a nation for themselves in Syria would teach the Turkish a well-deserved lesson for fueling civil wars elsewhere.

Turkey has issues with the Armenians and Kurds.
The Kurds were loyal allies of the Ottoman Empire, but didn't want to be fitted into the new Turkish nation of Atatürk and since had more or less hostility with the Turkish authorities. While in the wake of the idea of nations, a concept that swept away many prior political entities, the Kurds are on a path to at least autonomous regions in several states with the potential to create one nation in the unlikely event when their different factional leaders stop their infighting. But most Kurds in Turkey no longer live in their ancestral mountains, but fight for identity and chances among the metropolitan regions on the west coast.
The Armenians were cleared from the Muslim nation Turkey, whether or not calling is a genocide is a raging debate with a an uncompromising Turkish stance against any genocide blame and an as uncompromising Armenian stance that nothing but genocide is an acceptable description.
The Greeks wanted more land in the early days of Turkey's foundation and against all odds lost that war and were driven from their ancestral holds in Asia Minor. Turkey and Greece have ever since played hostile, allowing each of them to boost arms acquirement and military influence on politics. It's like India and Pakistan because they have almost everything but religion in common.

The problem between Turkey and Syria are the Turkish allowing armed border crossings of opposition forces into Syria and back to their camps in Turkey. Part of the mutual acceptance of borders is that you don't allow such harm intending people to cross your border unoppossed to inflict it on your neighbour. Doing otherwise is a breach that can be used as a casus belli because the neigbouring nation is under attack from across the border. It doesn't matter if you call these guys FSA or Turkish military. The Turkish state must show a commitment to stop all armed transgressions of hostile groups into Syria.

asif iqbal said:

what has Turkey done that is so destabilizing? what do you expect it to do with regards to Syria, everyone seems to be complaining about Turkeys role in the whole matter but no one yet has said what they expect from Turkey? are we just blaming for the sake of blaming because that will get us nowhere

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Why started Turkey to support the subversion of Syria by Saudi Arabia and Qatar after the first, non-violent, phase had failed to win sufficient support among the Syrian population and after these countries had gone on to organize terrorism in Syria? Were all three acting at the behest of the US?

asif iqbal said:

Turkey has never killed its own citizens by bombing them and sending in army to towns and villages and burn houses, Syria and Asad have, Syria is wrong there is no question about that

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ughhh,....
that's 2011

just couple days ago Turkey launched a major offensive against Kurds

delft said:

Why started Turkey to support the subversion of Syria by Saudi Arabia and Qatar after the first, non-violent, phase had failed to win sufficient support among the Syrian population and after these countries had gone on to organize terrorism in Syria? Were all three acting at the behest of the US?

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Incomprehensiable and stupid. Assad goes down fighting and Syria will erupt into a sectarian hell storm. Syria goes down so does Lebenon may be. who knows may be Kurds in Northern Iraq think its their chance. and go for a land grab and statehood. Saudis is risking Regional war here by destabilziing Syria.

asif iqbal said:

what has Turkey done that is so destabilizing? what do you expect it to do with regards to Syria, everyone seems to be complaining about Turkeys role in the whole matter but no one yet has said what they expect from Turkey? are we just blaming for the sake of blaming because that will get us nowhere

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Close down the border and don't host the rebel bases.

btw they are hosting more than bases for rebels.
they are the main conduit and staging area for running guns and specops (cia contractors and SAS) into Syria.

why do you think rebels are all of sudden smart and pushing Aleppo hard? because it is the key to northern syria. who ever controls aleppo can either link up with conduits on turksih border or stop that link.

The giant Incirlik US-NATO Military base is just across the border from Aleppo too.

south western of Aleppo is Tartus, big russian naval base, short hop from Aleppo. get those two and effectively the outside route into Syria is chopped off.