Sukhoi passes into obselence as the 50th Raptor is delivered.

IDonT said:

F-22 has super cruise capability
F-22 has thrust vectoring capability
F-22 has superior thrust to weight ratio.

Those are just the unclassified data.

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A big jet engine leaves a large jet plume(exhaust).

During the Cope India 2004 aerial wargame between USAF and Indian AF, various fighters were matched against each other, including F-15s and Su-30s. When using radars, the F-15s and Su-30s detect each other about the same time, which was expected. ..... soooo the wily Indian pilots just turned off their radars and just use the IRST(little bump front of pilot canopy on Su-30) to detect and track the F-15's jet plume. Since the IRST is passive and doesn't emit EM waves, and the Indians flew at very low altitude, the Su-30s appeared "invisible" to the F-15s ... and came up and "attack" behind the F-15s ...

Is the F-22's big jet plume "stealthy" too? :coffee:

What's with the coffe cup in all your post?

Is the F-22's big jet plume "stealthy" too?
1 Hour Ago 12:53 PM

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I saw a show on TV about the F-22 and in fact the way the engine is constructed and with its ablity to supercruise it does have a reduced exhaust(plume) signature. Read into this link what you will.

tphuang said:

F-22 doesn't really need to turn on data link. It can operate on its own. Besides, having radar transmission coming out of it can only make it more detectable, but that doesn't mean it will be detectable for other planes.

I think the results are just simulations. However, if you read about how well F-22s did against F-15s, I don't think it's hard to swallow that it can have a 10:! kill ratio against su-35.

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i didn't mean f-22 turning on datalink, i mean the su-35 out of the 10

Whats funny is the US is always hamstrung in the US/India exercises the F15 vs Sukhoi is one example. It was 10 planes vs 4 planes in indias favor and we couldnt use our awacs for bvr missles,also the US had to assume the defenders role meaning the initiative usually falls to the agressor. The F15 is a 34 year old plane pretty damn good for staying power that the rest of the world is just catching up to. Its good to have the F-22 and it will be awhile before anyone can match it, and it will constantly be badmouthed because well other governments dont have it.As soon as they(meaning adversaries) do catch up with it, we will be on another technology tree. If the US wanted air dominance anywhere in the world it could have it and thats what is the bottom line. Long live the USAF.

Aluka said:

I strongly believe that it's a bull****.

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Word.

There are so many variables in air combat, in any combat for that matter, that can change the outcome. Did they include Pilot Skill? Are we talking pilots that can utilize the SU-27/34 to it's full potential? Or are we talking rookie pilots that are as likely to smash into a mountian as they are to be shot down by a Sidewinder?

MIGleader said:

it be really nice if the chinese could mkae a missle that just destroyed the f-22s, leaving the spot of airfield underneath them untouched.

a chiense cruise missle attack would not provoke nuclear retaliation. it was a nice bluff back in the cold war days, but simply wont happen. things will be tense, but no nuclear retaliation. the u.s would be free to respond with non nuclear weapons.

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I agree that an attack on Guam would not bring about a nuclear response. But then again, it wouldn't be necessary. At this point in time, the USAF/USN can destroy any target they want on Mainland China at will. If China did this action, I suppose B-2's would probably be put to use.....each carrying 80 500lb. smart munitions. Or they might carry 40 JDAM 1000 lber's. It wouldn't be just one airfield or coastal facility. I would be expecting the USAF/USN combined arms to destroy every Chinese military coastal facility, radar facility, and command/logistics facility with both B-2 and Tomahawk strikes. You do realize that the USN can put hundreds of Tomahawks in the air in minutes. And you do realize that the Pentagon has working contingencies for just this kind of thing. Yes, China would pay a heavy price and would lose more than they gained.

EternalVigil said:

Whats funny is the US is always hamstrung in the US/India exercises the F15 vs Sukhoi is one example. It was 10 planes vs 4 planes in indias favor and we couldnt use our awacs for bvr missles,also the US had to assume the defenders role meaning the initiative usually falls to the agressor. The F15 is a 34 year old plane pretty damn good for staying power that the rest of the world is just catching up to. Its good to have the F-22 and it will be awhile before anyone can match it, and it will constantly be badmouthed because well other governments dont have it.As soon as they(meaning adversaries) do catch up with it, we will be on another technology tree. If the US wanted air dominance anywhere in the world it could have it and thats what is the bottom line. Long live the USAF.

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Amen to that.

As far as these air combat excersises and wargames go. Boys..Don't believe the hype As Vigil says the US is always hamstrung by these excersise s and it's ablity to use it's full war fighting capablity is stymied.
The same holds true for Naval excersises. This is done because it is a game and to give the oppsition a chance against a precieved enemey. The precieved enemy is not the US.

Sea Dog said:

I agree that an attack on Guam would not bring about a nuclear response. But then again, it wouldn't be necessary. At this point in time, the USAF/USN can destroy any target they want on Mainland China at will. If China did this action, I suppose B-2's would probably be put to use.....each carrying 80 500lb. smart munitions. Or they might carry 40 JDAM 1000 lber's. It wouldn't be just one airfield or coastal facility. I would be expecting the USAF/USN combined arms to destroy every Chinese military coastal facility, radar facility, and command/logistics facility with both B-2 and Tomahawk strikes. You do realize that the USN can put hundreds of Tomahawks in the air in minutes. And you do realize that the Pentagon has working contingencies for just this kind of thing. Yes, China would pay a heavy price and would lose more than they gained.

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Sea Dog, I think you are severely underestimating China's missile defense shield. If there is one thing that it has been loading up on, it would be SAMs.

Anyhow, back to F-22 vs su-35. I don't think datalink would help su-35 at all. I think it's pretty much guaranteed that F-22 will detect su-35 first unless there is an angle that F-22's radar is really weak and its RCS is also the largest. Given that, F-22 can simultaneously fire AAMs to destroy all su-35s and then just fly back to the base.

bd popeye said:

Amen to that.

As far as these air combat excersises and wargames go. Boys..Don't believe the hype As Vigil says the US is always hamstrung by these excersise s and it's ablity to use it's full war fighting capablity is stymied.
The same holds true for Naval excersises. This is done because it is a game and to give the oppsition a chance against a precieved enemey. The precieved enemy is not the US.

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Amen to both of you. In this particular exercise, they also got to use an adapted AWACS capable aircraft, while the USAF F-15 had no such support. The F-15's were also limited to WVR missiles while the Sukhoi jets were given a BVR advantage.....not to mention an advantage in numbers. When you put this together, you can see the exercise was for India's benefit...not the USAF.

tphuang said:

Sea Dog, I think you are severely underestimating China's missile defense shield. If there is one thing that it has been loading up on, it would be SAMs.

Anyhow, back to F-22 vs su-35. I don't think datalink would help su-35 at all. I think it's pretty much guaranteed that F-22 will detect su-35 first unless there is an angle that F-22's radar is really weak and its RCS is also the largest. Given that, F-22 can simultaneously fire AAMs to destroy all su-35s and then just fly back to the base.

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No. That's not true. I respect China's missile defense capabilities. But I'm not sure the systems fielded would be able to deal with a B-2 strike they couldn't detect. Not to mention the systems would be horrendously overwhelmed by Hundreds of low-flying, low-observable Tomahawks. Some of these using ECM, and other neat goodies to penetrate missile defense radars. SAM radars are rather susceptible to certain types of electronic warfare methods. And it's hard to overcome some of these methods when utilized in such a robust manner.

On the F-22 stuff, I agree with everything you said. But still, Su-35 is nothing to laugh at. In my opinion, it is one of the most maneuvarable fighters in existence. The Paris airshow showed that. I can't wait to see the J-10 in a flight demonstration, as it's been said it has low speed characteristics like this.

P.S. Sorry mods for the double post. I got confused with the order of my posts. oops.