Speculation and facts on future Chinese vessels

Mysterre

Mysterre

Banned Idiot
Hendrik_2000 said:
You offer nothing other than platitude Now how do you explained the fact that Soviet noise signature suddenly improve after they import the milling machine ?
Why US and cocom threw a hiss after they discover that Toshiba and Kongsberg export Milling machine to Soviet. why China cannot import CNC milling machine until today though it is how the case shooting on one own foot because China now export CNC milling machine to US
Read this article

The design of propeller is well known science I bet they have devoted large amount of money in research and development of the most efficient propeller
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How do YOU explain the fact that despite the possession of 7-axis CNC machinery and open source literature, Russian subs are still not as quiet as American subs? The Russians have had far more time with submarine research and 7-axis CNC mills than China has; you must think the Russians are idiots. Either that or your sham of an argument has holes in it the size of a nuclear submarine. And how do you explain the fact that the latest generation of USN subs don’t even use the typical skewed 7-bladed props anymore? Are you now going to claim that China is putting pumpjets on its 095’s to match the Seawolf and Virginia classes?

Hendrik_2000 said:
You abviously has no clue about engineering in general when I say a huge body of literature doesn't mean Internet. Long before the advance of internet people in engineering discuss the finding of their research with publication or proceeding and do check the ASME that is they are the governing body that regulate ,publish, propagate new research and finding in engineering . There section specialized in rotating machinery and other field.
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You say you don’t mean the internet but you give me a Wikipedia article as your source! ROFLMAO :D

While I have no doubt there is some open source literature out there regarding vibration isolation of pump machinery, this is NOT the same thing as claiming that using this open source literature will somehow lead to the state of the art in submarine quieting technology. In between “open source literature” and “Seawolf quiet” are manifold steps that you simply choose to gloss over because it is intellectually expedient for you to do so, and no less dishonest. That’s assuming you even know what it takes to translate this information into a military submarine application. Which brings me back to your earlier and humorously grandiose claim about your ‘similar’ line of work. So, WHAT DO YOU DO EXACTLY?
 
Hendrik_2000

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Mysterre said:
How do YOU explain the fact that despite the possession of 7-axis CNC machinery and open source literature, Russian subs are still not as quiet as American subs? The Russians have had far more time with submarine research and 7-axis CNC mills than China has; you must think the Russians are idiots. Either that or your sham of an argument has holes in it the size of a nuclear submarine. And how do you explain the fact that the latest generation of USN subs don’t even use the typical skewed 7-bladed props anymore? Are you now going to claim that China is putting pumpjets on its 095’s to match the Seawolf and Virginia classes?


You say you don’t mean the internet but you give me a Wikipedia article as your source! ROFLMAO :D

While I have no doubt there is some open source literature out there regarding vibration isolation of pump machinery, this is NOT the same thing as claiming that using this open source literature will somehow lead to the state of the art in submarine quieting technology. In between “open source literature” and “Seawolf quiet” are manifold steps that you simply choose to gloss over because it is intellectually expedient for you to do so, and no less dishonest. That’s assuming you even know what it takes to translate this information into a military submarine application. Which brings me back to your earlier and humorously grandiose claim about your ‘similar’ line of work. So, WHAT DO YOU DO EXACTLY?
Click to expand...

Soviet never had advanced civilian economy to begin with that is why they have to import those CNC milling machinery from Toshiba and Kongsberg.

Again you have no clue about research and engineering in general . You didn't start from scratch because the basic design and research is already available . What you do next is optimized the mathematical equation to get what you want You need good expert hydrodynamic, math , numerical analyst, programmer, engineer, Built a program if commercial program is not available. then simulate different model

Then you built rig to test different model equipped with data acquisition computer. Spend years and ton of money until you get what you want!
 
Hendrik_2000

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Mysterre said:
How do YOU explain the fact that despite the possession of 7-axis CNC machinery and open source literature, Russian subs are still not as quiet as American subs? The Russians have had far more time with submarine research and 7-axis CNC mills than China has; you must think the Russians are idiots. Either that or your sham of an argument has holes in it the size of a nuclear submarine. And how do you explain the fact that the latest generation of USN subs don’t even use the typical skewed 7-bladed props anymore? Are you now going to claim that China is putting pumpjets on its 095’s to match the Seawolf and Virginia classes?


You say you don’t mean the internet but you give me a Wikipedia article as your source! ROFLMAO :D

While I have no doubt there is some open source literature out there regarding vibration isolation of pump machinery, this is NOT the same thing as claiming that using this open source literature will somehow lead to the state of the art in submarine quieting technology. In between “open source literature” and “Seawolf quiet” are manifold steps that you simply choose to gloss over because it is intellectually expedient for you to do so, and no less dishonest. That’s assuming you even know what it takes to translate this information into a military submarine application. Which brings me back to your earlier and humorously grandiose claim about your ‘similar’ line of work. So, WHAT DO YOU DO EXACTLY?
Click to expand...

Soviet never had advanced civilian economy to begin with that is why they have to import those CNC milling machinery from Toshiba and Kongsberg.

Russia doesn't have the resources to keep up with the US that is why they are behind.

Again you have no clue about research and engineering in general . You didn't start from scratch because the basic design and research is already available . What you do next is optimized the mathematical equation to get what you want You need good expert hydrodynamic, math , numerical analyst, programmer, engineer, Built a program if commercial program is not available. then simulate different model

Then you built rig to test different model equipped with data acquisition computer. Spend years and ton of money until you get what you want!
 
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M

montyp165

Senior Member
One of the books I have on the subject, Cold War Submarines: The Design and Construction of U.S. and Soviet Submarines, 1945-2001 by Norman Polmar and KJ Moore basically corroborates the points that Hendrik_2000 has been trying to make, it is very instructive reading in more ways that one.
 
Mysterre

Mysterre

Banned Idiot
Hendrik_2000 said:
Soviet never had advanced civilian economy to begin with that is why they have to import those CNC milling machinery from Toshiba and Kongsberg.

Russia doesn't have the resources to keep up with the US that is why they are behind.

Again you have no clue about research and engineering in general . You didn't start from scratch because the basic design and research is already available . What you do next is optimized the mathematical equation to get what you want You need good expert hydrodynamic, math , numerical analyst, programmer, engineer, Built a program if commercial program is not available. then simulate different model

Then you built rig to test different model equipped with data acquisition computer. Spend years and ton of money until you get what you want!
Click to expand...
Russia not having resources sounds like BS to me. They have been making Akula, Improved Akula as well as a newer SSN model. If all it took as you ridiculously claim was 1) CNC milling machines, 2) available information from open source literature, and 3) hydrodynamic shaping, then there is no reason the Russians cannot have a Seawolf-equivalent. You've already been called out on hydrodynamics and have now dropped that silliness from your posts; the truth is that you don't know squat about hydrodynamics and can only say that according to your fanboy amateur eyes China's subs don't look "too much different" from other subs. What a joke. CNC mills and open source literature no doubt improve sumbarine sound-reduction technology but even from someone who doesn't know much about this stuff like me, I can already tell you're just trying to sell me a bunch of hot air. The reality is, you don't know jack squat about submarine design but are just pretending that you do and in the process hilarously distilling submarine technology into a few talking points that are easy for you to understand but probably misses the difficulty of sub design by a mile.

montyp165 said:
One of the books I have on the subject, Cold War Submarines: The Design and Construction of U.S. and Soviet Submarines, 1945-2001 by Norman Polmar and KJ Moore basically corroborates the points that Hendrik_2000 has been trying to make, it is very instructive reading in more ways that one.
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It does not take a rocket scientist to realize that prop noise, machinery noise, and hydrodynamics are important to acousitc reduction in submarines. This is not what he's claiming. He's taking these obvious points and claiming that China has mastered them all and implicitly or even explicitly claiming that China's submarine technology is now state of the art, on par with Seawolf and Virginia. This is an unacceptable claim without more evidence than what he has so far provided. Along with his job description, which he has been unwilling to divulge, but which he used to lord his posts over the rest of us. So, what does he do that he can front himself the way he does? Do you know? This isn't some national secret and revealing this information would not compromise anything at all, so let's not start any irrelevant bantering about privacy concerns.
 
J

J-XX

Banned Idiot
Mysterre said:
Russia not having resources sounds like BS to me. They have been making Akula, Improved Akula as well as a newer SSN model. If all it took as you ridiculously claim was 1) CNC milling machines, 2) available information from open source literature, and 3) hydrodynamic shaping, then there is no reason the Russians cannot have a Seawolf-equivalent. You've already been called out on hydrodynamics and have now dropped that silliness from your posts; the truth is that you don't know squat about hydrodynamics and can only say that according to your fanboy amateur eyes China's subs don't look "too much different" from other subs. What a joke. CNC mills and open source literature no doubt improve sumbarine sound-reduction technology but even from someone who doesn't know much about this stuff like me, I can already tell you're just trying to sell me a bunch of hot air. The reality is, you don't know jack squat about submarine design but are just pretending that you do and in the process hilarously distilling submarine technology into a few talking points that are easy for you to understand but probably misses the difficulty of sub design by a mile.


It does not take a rocket scientist to realize that prop noise, machinery noise, and hydrodynamics are important to acousitc reduction in submarines. This is not what he's claiming. He's taking these obvious points and claiming that China has mastered them all and implicitly or even explicitly claiming that China's submarine technology is now state of the art, on par with Seawolf and Virginia. This is an unacceptable claim without more evidence than what he has so far provided. Along with his job description, which he has been unwilling to divulge, but which he used to lord his posts over the rest of us. So, what does he do that he can front himself the way he does? Do you know? This isn't some national secret and revealing this information would not compromise anything at all, so let's not start any irrelevant bantering about privacy concerns.
Click to expand...

Why is it an unacceptable claim?
Because YOU don't like it or want to believe it?

So you THINK china is behind, can YOU actually prove it.
How do YOU know where china is?

You call others fanboys but your the biggest fanboy of all claiming to be 100% sure that its IMPOSSIBLE for china to match seawolf/Virginia class because YOU don't think it's possible.
Height of delusion.

Hendrik has given plenty of evidence to support his claim.
YOU just offer YOUR opinion.
Evidence > Opinion

Please stop giving opinions and back it up with sources son.
Maybe you just can't back it up because your knowledge on it is limited.
 
V

Vini_Vidi_Vici

Junior Member
This is pointless. Neither of you can prove the other one being wrong or yourself being right. If you guys want to backup your claim, then use credible sources to back it up. I'm sure there are some sort of leaked info out there. Even leaked photo of WS15 engineers underneath the banner came out.

Without proofs, all of us are just baseless wannabes. Just like in the ghetto, don't say shit you can't back up.

A lot of times we can't just think "obviously". For example, China has five axis CNC machines, therefore they're going to use it on the submarine, or there's lots of dual use technology out there, hence China must have sea wolf equivalent submarines out there.

But a lot of times there are limiting factors that we don't know about. There's a classic example from Nestle, most of you from business majors probably heard about it before. Before Nestle restructured and streamlined their corporation, 20 some of their subsidies/branches bought from the same vanilla supplier for 20 some different prices. This sounds crazy but it happened for few decades. Another one is USSR can make state of the art bombers, rockets and submarines, but they can't even supply enough civilian chewing gum or butter knives.

Of course, China is improving rapidly, we can began to hypothesize the possibility of China producing ultra quiet submarines. We are more than free to express that, but we can only express it as our personal opinion. We cannot just bullishly claim something to be legitimate without hard proof.
 
bd popeye

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
1-2.gif


STOP the useless arguing immediately. Move on to another subject of this thread.

bd popeye super moderator
 
K

kroko

Senior Member
I dont want to continue the submarine discussion, but hendrik i would still like to know what is that you do that is similar to sub tech. Come on, tell us something, even if it is to say that you dont want to, or you were wrong.
 
A

A.Man

Major
Sorry, I, personally, have some question and doubts about the list. I better to delete it.
 
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