South China Sea Strategies for other nations (Not China)

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
I think there is a significant over reaction to this report.

It says, " permitted to use on-board weapons to deter and repel foreign boats."

It then goes onto to clarify that these are vessels that are in, “the country’s waters illegally.”

And, that the Coast Guard vessel must, "Vietnamese authorities first verbally notify foreign vessels"

I take this to mean that if a foreign vessels illegally enters Vietnam's waters, that they are permitted to use force to "repel" them, which implies that the foreign vessel would be attacking, or aggressively coming at the Vietnamese boat. But even then,only after issuing a verbal warning to give them a chance to stop..

I believe most Coast Guard vessels of most nations would do the same.

IOW, if there is a clear foreign vessel illegally violating your waters and then that boat is acting toward your vessel in such a manner that it needs to be "repelled," and if after a warning for them to stop such behavior, they continue, then they are given permission to use force.

Let's not turn this into something it is not.
 
Last edited:

solarz

Brigadier
My gut feeling would be if the Vietnam CG really carries out this newly authorized power, it would most likely be directed on Chinese civilian ships - fishing vessels and scientific vessels (ie oil exploration).

IMO, if the Vietnamese were really going to escalate the conflict in the SCS, their president would not have attended the big military parade. I think this is likely just western media exaggerating something that was intended to be domestic posturing.
 

joshuatree

Captain
IMO, if the Vietnamese were really going to escalate the conflict in the SCS, their president would not have attended the big military parade. I think this is likely just western media exaggerating something that was intended to be domestic posturing.

I always thought there were two camps in Vietnamese politics, one pro-China, one anti? Well this is what Thank Nien News said below which The Diplomat referenced to.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


The Vietnamese government has introduced a new rule allowing coast guard forces to use weapons to chase away foreign vessels entering the country’s waters illegally.

The rule will take effect on October 20. Vietnamese coast guards can start using weapons to chase away foreign boats which encroach on Vietnamese waters and disregard orders by Vietnamese maritime security officers.

It said the chase can continue until the foreign boats are completely out of Vietnamese waters.
Vietnam has reported many Chinese boat attacks against local fishermen when they were fishing near the Truong Sa (Spratly) and Hoang Sa (Paracel) Islands.

The attacks have occurred more often since China deployed a US$1-billion oil rig illegally in Vietnamese waters in May last year. The rig was removed after two months.


It says, " permitted to use on-board weapons to deter and repel foreign boats."

It then goes onto to clarify that these are vessels that are in, “the country’s waters illegally.”

Technically, the "deter and repel" words were coming from The Diplomat. Thanh News says "to chase away". While this is something that shouldn't get blown out of proportion, the description of "the country's waters illegally" may sound absolutely normal but with a reference to Vietnamese fishermen near the Spratly and Paracel Islands, this is where the possibility for escalation exists. If Vietnam considers those areas as the country's waters in the same context for CG weapons enforcement, that's not gonna play out well.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
Good write up on US or any other country sending naval ships inside 12 miles of China's or anyone else's land features in the SCS or any other bodies of water.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

While China conducts innocent passage around real U.S. islands of Alaska, the U.S. is apparently unable to do so around China’s fake islands in the South China Sea. The transit by Chinese warships in innocent passage through the territorial sea of Attu Island in the Aleutian chain has added an additional wrinkle to U.S. policy in the South China Sea.

On May 12, the Wall Street Journal
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
that Secretary of Defense Ash Carter had asked his staff to “look at options” for exercising the rights and freedom of navigation and overflight in the EEZ, to include flying maritime patrol aircraft over China’s new artificial islands in the region, and sending U.S. warships to within 12 nautical miles of them. Later that month, a P-8 surveillance aircraft with a CNN crew on board, was repeatedly warned to “
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
” from Fiery Cross Reef, even as it flew beyond 12 nm from the feature. Fiery Cross Reef is a Chinese-occupied outcropping that has been fortified by a massive 2.7 million square meter land reclamation into an artificial island with a 3,110-meter airstrip and harbor works capable of servicing large warships.

Warships and commercial vessels of all nations are entitled to conduct transit in innocent passage in the territorial sea of a rock or island of a coastal state, although aircraft do not enjoy such a right. Ironically, the website POLITICO
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
on July 31 that the White House blocked plans by Admiral Harry Harris, Commander, U.S. Pacific Command, to send warships within 12 nm of China’s artificial islands – features that may not even qualify for a territorial sea. By blocking such transits, military officials apparently suggest that the White House tacitly accepts China’s unlawful claim to control shipping around its occupied features in the South China Sea. Senator John McCain complained that the United States was making a “
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
” by granting de facto recognition of China’s man-made “sovereignty” claims.

It is unclear whether features like Fiery Cross Reef are rocks or merely low-tide elevations that are submerged at high tide, and after China has so radically transformed them, it may now be impossible to determine their natural state. Under the terms of the law of the sea, states with ownership over naturally formed rocks are entitled to claim a 12 nm territorial sea. On the other hand, low-tide elevations in the mid-ocean do not qualify for any maritime zone whatsoever. Likewise, artificial islands and installations also generate no maritime zones of sovereignty or sovereign rights in international law, although the owner of features may maintain a 500-meter vessel traffic management zone to ensure navigational safety.

Regardless of the natural geography of China’s occupied features in the South China Sea, China does not have clear legal title to them. Every feature occupied by China is challenged by another claimant state, often with clearer line of title from Spanish, British or French colonial rule. The nation, not the land, is sovereign, which is why there is no territorial sea around Antarctica – it is not under the sovereignty of any state, despite being a continent. As the United States has not recognized Chinese title to the features, it is not obligated to observe requirements of a theoretical territorial sea. Since the territorial sea is function of state sovereignty of each rock or island, and not a function of simple geography, if the United States does not recognize any state having title to the feature, then it is not obligated to observe a theoretical territorial sea and may treat the feature as terra nullius. Not only do U.S. warships have a right to transit within 12 nm of Chinese features, they are free to do so as an exercise of highs seas freedom under article 87 of the Law of the Sea Convention, rather than the more limited regime of innocent passage. Furthermore, whereas innocent passage does not permit overflight, high seas freedoms do, and U.S. naval aircraft lawfully may overfly such features.

In response, it might be suggested that while the United States may not recognize Chinese ownership of the rocks, it must realize that some country, perhaps one of the coastal states actually located in the vicinity of the feature, has lawful title, and therefore the U.S. Navy is bound to observe a putative territorial sea.

It is possible, however, that there is no state that has lawful title, and indeed the swirling debate and paucity of evidence rendered by claimants suggests this may be the case. Before World War II, few if any of the features were effectively governed by anyone, except Japan, which illegally occupied them during war. Tokyo gave up its claim after World War II. Similarly, actions taken by states after 1945 to seize maritime features using armed aggression are prima facie unlawful under article 2(4) of the Charter of the United Nations. Furthermore, actions taken by a state to fortify its claim after there is a dispute are similarly void of legal effect. In any event, the strongest claims appear to flow from the doctrine of uti possidetis, which stipulates that lawful possession is assumed by colonies after they become independent states. Prior to 1945, conquest was a lawful means of acquiring title to territory, so the European colonial powers certainly enjoyed legal title to the features they controlled. The Philippines, Malaysia and Brunei, Indonesia, and Vietnam derive their title to features from Spain, Great Britain, the Netherlands, and France.

More importantly, even assuming that one or another state may have lawful title to a feature, other states are not obligated to confer upon that nation the right to unilaterally adopt and enforce measures that interfere with navigation, until lawful title is resolved. Indeed, observing any nation’s rules pertaining to features under dispute legitimizes that country’s claim and takes sides. This point is particularly critical for commercial overflight since states already manage international air traffic through the International Civil Aviation Organization and the worldwide air traffic control regions. Finally, there is a policy reason that supports this approach. Given the proliferation of claims over the hundreds of rocks, reefs, skerries and cays in the South China Sea, if the international community recognizes the maximum theoretical rights generated by each of them, the oceans and airspace will come to look like Swiss cheese and be practically closed off to free navigation and overflight.

Distinguished American historian Samuel Flagg Bemis called the doctrine of freedom of the seas the “ancient birthright” of the American Republic.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
This birthright faces its gravest risk since unrestricted submarine warfare. Woodrow Wilson brought the United States into World War I to vindicate a Fourteen Point program for peace. Point number 2 was for “freedom of navigation … in peace and in war.” Similarly, Franklin D. Roosevelt and Winston Churchill signed the Atlantic Charter in 1941 that set forth principles for a new world order – a united nations. Principle Seven committed them to freedom of the seas. Maritime freedoms and the law of the sea are at an inflection point. The United States and the international community must take action now to operate with regularity on, under, and above the surface of the South China Sea, persistently and routinely in the vicinity of China’s artificial islands. Only a normalized presence today will ensure predictability and stability tomorrow.
 

Yvrch

Junior Member
Registered Member
^^ The real joy of reading above piece is almost constantly disagreeing with the writer.
The main theme of the piece seems to be the trumped up charge against China of illegally controlling “freedom of navigation” in SCS. So we have to look for any shred of evidence that support that claim. Any commercial flight or passage has been challenged by China in SCS in the last century or this century? I'll give it a very small chance that Chinese government, single-handedly or in collusion with other governments/int'l bodies/air lines/shipping companies etc, hide a few incidents so well entire world didn't know. But everybody knows the absurdity of it. If US decides, out of millions of square kilometers of SCS available for free passage, military or otherwise, they must run through 3000 acres to make a point, which may very well trigger a major crisis subsequently, they better check what they wish for. How did the last time a trumped up charge of WMD against someone go? The thirst for adventure in a faraway lands may very well turn out decidedly different this time.

Prior to 1945, conquest was a lawful means of acquiring title to territory, so the European colonial powers certainly enjoyed legal title to the features they controlled.
So what changed since then, when newly independent nations have nothing to show for the semi/total colonization but poverty, destruction, and strife of general nature all around? When the former colonial masters still drawing thin pencil lines all over the map, sometimes purposely forgot to cross the T and dot the I?
The writer presumptuously postulates former colonial powers gave the legal rights over the disputed areas to newly independent countries . As far as I know, none of the claimants based their claims on colonial legacies.

I have to agree with the Indonesian official who participated in negotiating UNCLOS. He said freedom of the sea brought colonization to my country.
This is no longer a colonial age.
 
Good write up on US or any other country sending naval ships inside 12 miles of China's or anyone else's land features in the SCS or any other bodies of water.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

This is just one more piece of evidence that the US is the main inheritor and enforcer of Western European colonialism intent on pursuing gunboat diplomacy, however adorned with self-righteousness and lawfare as it may be. This is logical as the US is the defining success story of colonialism. It also follows logic that China would be the one country to challenge being subjected to such colonialism as it was and is the last frontier for colonialism that was never quite completely conquered.

As much as the international system has evolved, it has actually moved back towards colonialism at a faster pace since the fall of the Eastern European communist block. Even during the Cold War the Western European (and American) colonial powers successfully undermined local authorities and societal evolution throughout the world from the Middle East, throughout Latin America, Africa, and Asia, often by supporting regressive local factions such as the Gulf monarchies. The countries most fervently attacked, ostracized, and undermined by Western colonial powers for other claimed reasons since WW2 are the ones who most thoroughly overthrew economic and political colonial subjugation by the last three colonial powers standing (UK, France, and the US), from Iran, all the Baath party secular Arab republics, to Cuba, and Vietnam.

Justifiably the Cold War can be seen as a failed part of the anti-colonialism struggle but I won't get into a debate about that here.

The central tool of colonialism has always been force of arms, even if it also relied very heavily on intrigue to exacerbate local divisions. Interesting times witnessing the Great Game continue.
 

Yvrch

Junior Member
Registered Member
If we look into the history of UNCLOS and its lengthy negotiations, then major maritime powers - US, USSR, UK, Japan ,France - all colluded together to better protect their maritime interests, forcing, persuading their respective client states to the objectives they wanted to achieve. US wrote most of the texts on straits navigation. US's crowning achievement was to have the doctrine of the freedom of the sea a hollowed provision in UNCLOS, much to the overwhelming approval of USN, and for lesser extent USCG, who must have the ability to freely roam the seas around the world to protect and further American interests unimpeded.
What China is currently doing is to push forth the assertion that surveillance, reconnaissance, military surveys of the seabed and marine data collection for military purposes in EEZ are prejudicial to coastal states' national security and making it to gain currency among coastal states. There already is about 8 countries that practice it, including India and Vietnam. When it becomes a wider pratice, who is to say it's not a customary practice of the states?
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
I think there is a significant over reaction to this report.

It says, " permitted to use on-board weapons to deter and repel foreign boats."

It then goes onto to clarify that these are vessels that are in, “the country’s waters illegally.”

And, that the Coast Guard vessel must, "Vietnamese authorities first verbally notify foreign vessels"

I take this to mean that if a foreign vessels illegally enters Vietnam's waters, that they are permitted to use force to "repel" them, which implies that the foreign vessel would be attacking, or aggressively coming at the Vietnamese boat. But even then,only after issuing a verbal warning to give them a chance to stop..

I believe most Coast Guard vessels of most nations would do the same.

IOW, if there is a clear foreign vessel illegally violating your waters and then that boat is acting toward your vessel in such a manner that it needs to be "repelled," and if after a warning for them to stop such behavior, they continue, then they are given permission to use force.

Let's not turn this into something it is not.

Hey Jeff,

I think that is a very charitable interpretation of what this new law allows, so much so, you wonder why they would need a specific new law to allow for such standard practice acts as you have described.

I read "repel" as meaning something very different to your view that they have to be physically under attack. I see it was the law authorising Vietnamese coast guard ships to open fire on foreign ships as a means to expel them from what Vietnam considers to be their waters.

I would assume that it would be warning shots at first, but there isn't any details.

The key issue here is that there are disputed waters in the SCS. Vietnam considers them to be their waters, but depending on which bit of water, one or all of the other main claimants would also consider that to be their waters.

You start firing weapons, even just as warning shots, in those areas and under those circumstances, and things could get real complicated and real messy real fast.
 
Top