Siege of Changchun

vesicles

Colonel
Come on, what? The PLA wiping the floor with thousands of former puppet forces is "completely ineffective"? One of the earliest battles, Yetaishan, was against regular KMT troops. 6k PLA defeated 20k KMT. How is that "completely ineffective"?

If you keep saying that the KMT was led by a complete loser every time the Communists win, then shouldn't it be the KMT who are "ineffective", considering the number of battles they lost?

You've been focusing on the battle between Sun Liren and Lin Biao and portraying it as the entire early stage of the Civil War, when the simple fact is, the PLA was more than holding its own against the KMT in even the early stages, and completely steamrolled the KMT from 1947 onwards.

Everyone focuses on Sun Liren and Lin Biao. You know why?? Because it WAS the first MAJOR campaigns of the Chinese civil war. Both the CCP and KMT classified the civil war into 4 major battles: Laioshen, Huaihai, Pingjin and Dujiang campaigns. Both sides considered Liaoshen as the first major clash between the two sides. All the clashes before that were only limited in scale and significance. that's how Lin Biao got famous, fighting the Liaoshen campaign. It was the first real test of PLA's capability. They can beat the little ones all they wanted. It's the big guys that counted. And they choked... Big time! it was more like annihilation on the side of PLA. Liaoshen was so important that Mao wrote to Lin that what he would do in Manchuria decides the outcome of the entire war. So they choked in crunch time.
 
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solarz

Brigadier
Everyone focuses on Sun Liren and Lin Biao. You know why?? Because it WAS the first MAJOR campaigns of the Chinese civil war. Both the CCP and KMT classified the civil war into 4 major battles: Laioshen, Huaihai, Pingjin and Dujiang campaigns. Both sides considered Liaoshen as the first major clash between the two sides. All the clashes before that were only limited in scale and significance. that's how Lin Biao got famous, fighting the Liaoshen campaign. It was the first real test of PLA's capability. They can beat the little ones all they wanted. It's the big guys that counted. And they choked... Big time! it was more like annihilation on the side of PLA. Liaoshen was so important that Mao wrote to Lin that what he would do in Manchuria decides the outcome of the entire war. So they choked in crunch time.

No it wasn't, and no they don't. As I have pointed out, and as demonstrated in the list of battles, the PLA was active all over China. Sun managed to beat Lin Biao, so what? While he was doing that, the PLA took over vast swathes of Shandong, linking up their holdings in Shandong and Central China and put themselves in a position to directly threaten the KMT strongholds of Nanjing and Shanghai.

Meanwhile, Lin Biao was well aware that his troops couldn't stand against the New 1st Army toe-to-toe so he fell back, drawing the elite KMT divisions further away from where the PLA was mounting the majority of its operations. In the end, Lin Biao still managed to destroy the New 1st Army and secure the entirety of that theater. Yes, you can claim that the CCP got lucky when Jiang relieved Sun of his command, but what would have happened otherwise is in the realm of conjecture.
 

jackliu

Banned Idiot
Everyone focuses on Sun Liren and Lin Biao. You know why?? Because it WAS the first MAJOR campaigns of the Chinese civil war. Both the CCP and KMT classified the civil war into 4 major battles: Laioshen, Huaihai, Pingjin and Dujiang campaigns. Both sides considered Liaoshen as the first major clash between the two sides. All the clashes before that were only limited in scale and significance. that's how Lin Biao got famous, fighting the Liaoshen campaign. It was the first real test of PLA's capability. They can beat the little ones all they wanted. It's the big guys that counted. And they choked... Big time! it was more like annihilation on the side of PLA. Liaoshen was so important that Mao wrote to Lin that what he would do in Manchuria decides the outcome of the entire war. So they choked in crunch time.

I don't know about you, but 3/4 of the battle you listed on Wikipedia it all shows Decisive Communist victory, especially the Liaoshen Campaign. I can't find Dujiang campaign however, must be wrong spelling.
 

vesicles

Colonel
I don't know about you, but 3/4 of the battle you listed on Wikipedia it all shows Decisive Communist victory, especially the Liaoshen Campaign. I can't find Dujiang campaign however, must be wrong spelling.

Did I ever say the PLA lost Liaoshen campaign??? All I was saying was Lin Biao was losing at the beginning because PLA lacked experience and training. There was no doubt what-so-ever that the PLA and Lin Biao won the campaign eventually. By gaining control of Manchuria, the CCP gained momentum and eventually won the entire war.

No matter how you want to discuss it, the PLA vets in later interviews clearly indicated that they seriously lacked experience on the battlefield. And they had to learn everything from captured KMT soldiers.

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take a look at this comprehensive documentary of battles in Manchuria.
 

jackliu

Banned Idiot
Did I ever say the PLA lost Liaoshen campaign??? All I was saying was Lin Biao was losing at the beginning because PLA lacked experience and training. There was no doubt what-so-ever that the PLA and Lin Biao won the campaign eventually. By gaining control of Manchuria, the CCP gained momentum and eventually won the entire war.

No matter how you want to discuss it, the PLA vets in later interviews clearly indicated that they seriously lacked experience on the battlefield. And they had to learn everything from captured KMT soldiers.

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take a look at this comprehensive documentary of battles in Manchuria.

I'm just having hard time to believe that.
1. PLA gained no experience fighting Japanese during the 2 decades of war, that most of their success are from captured KMT soldiers.
2. If by the previous logic, if PLA learned everything from KMT's captured troops, that means KMT will still be superior, then why did they perform so poorly in the civil war?

Are you expect me to believe that during the sino Japanese war, PLA was nothing, but for some reason, they became super effective just 1 year later? And this is all from captured KMT troops?
 

montyp165

Senior Member
Even PLA failures in situations like the Hundred Regiments Campaign were very instructive for not only in increasing combat experience of their troops, but also demonstrating the significance of maintaining unit cohesion in disengagements, which would prove critical for future successes in later battles.
 

solarz

Brigadier
Did I ever say the PLA lost Liaoshen campaign??? All I was saying was Lin Biao was losing at the beginning because PLA lacked experience and training. There was no doubt what-so-ever that the PLA and Lin Biao won the campaign eventually. By gaining control of Manchuria, the CCP gained momentum and eventually won the entire war.

No matter how you want to discuss it, the PLA vets in later interviews clearly indicated that they seriously lacked experience on the battlefield. And they had to learn everything from captured KMT soldiers.

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take a look at this comprehensive documentary of battles in Manchuria.

That's a great documentary. I just finished watching the first episode. Although the show does use words to indicate that the NW theatre was the most critical theatre for the Communists, it's important to note that Lin Biao commanded only 100k troops. That's less than 10% of the Communists' total strength. Obviously, there were other things going on at the same time.
 

solarz

Brigadier
Also, notice that in the fight for NW China, the KMT sent their best troops, while the CCP sent their closest troops. Thus, I don't think it's fair to judge the early PLA as "ineffective" based on the early results of their battle against the most elite KMT troops.
 

lightspeed

Junior Member
You're contradicting yourself.

1- If the CCP had less than 1.2 million troops, then it is all the more evidence that they were *NOT* inexperienced and untrained. The KMT had 4.6 million troops. If they couldn't take out 350k Communists with inferior equipment and no combat experience...

2- Of *course* the Nationalists will complain about insufficient aid, since they're losing battle after battle. Nothing remarkable about that. There's a reason Jiang was known as General "Cash-my-check" in the US.

The Japanese surrendered on August 14, 1945. The hostilities between CCP and KMT resumed on June 26th, 1946. 200k KMT troops surrounded 60k CCP troops at the border of Hubei and Henan. The Communists broke out of the encirclement. Is that the possible with inexperienced troops?


Between those 2 events, only 10 months have passed. Factoring in the time it takes to actually take control of surrendered Japanese equipment, the Communists would only have had a few months to train in Japanese equipment *AND* somehow acquire enough combat training to manage the above feat. That is if we stick with your idea that the Communists didn't do anything useful during the war against Japan.

why don't you add up the CCP commanders and their units after ww2 end to estimate if they had 1.2 million regular troops strength? Mao Zedong motive of exaggerating the fake 1 million number would be to claim a non-existent mandate, i.e. support from peasants so to have more bargaining rights during the peace talks in Chungking 1945.

the CCP did have more than 1 million troops by mid 1946. the increase from 300-500K to 1 million came from the Manchukuo army (400K), North Korean troops (100K) and extensive conscription.

the best military aid for the Nationalist are the small arms and ammunition. the United States did not give any infantry weapons to the Nationalist after WW2 end to 1948. the Nationalist also had a severe shortage of ammunition.

i thought Li Xiannian's & Wang Zhen forces were heavily routed, reduced to 500 remnants? i know little about this Hubei-Henan battle.

inexperienced troops doesn't mean no ability to fight / no chances of success. the moral and spirit mattered a lot and are equally important with military might in winning battles. the Communist troops' morale were high on the ascendance from 1946. by contrast the Nationalist troops' morale were deteriorating and increasingly dispirited as the war dragged on due to many reasons.

so the Communist did what useful fighting during the war, especially from 1941-1945? please write a bit more, not just one line like harassing Japanese behind the front lines. harass what? and what did the Commies achieved that really made a useful contribution toward the Chinese war situation?
 

solarz

Brigadier
why don't you add up the CCP commanders and their units after ww2 end to estimate if they had 1.2 million regular troops strength? Mao Zedong motive of exaggerating the fake 1 million number would be to claim a non-existent mandate, i.e. support from peasants so to have more bargaining rights during the peace talks in Chungking 1945.

the CCP did have more than 1 million troops by mid 1946. the increase from 300-500K to 1 million came from the Manchukuo army (400K), North Korean troops (100K) and extensive conscription.

the best military aid for the Nationalist are the small arms and ammunition. the United States did not give any infantry weapons to the Nationalist after WW2 end to 1948. the Nationalist also had a severe shortage of ammunition.

i thought Li Xiannian's & Wang Zhen forces were heavily routed, reduced to 500 remnants? i know little about this Hubei-Henan battle.

inexperienced troops doesn't mean no ability to fight / no chances of success. the moral and spirit mattered a lot and are equally important with military might in winning battles. the Communist troops' morale were high on the ascendance from 1946. by contrast the Nationalist troops' morale were deteriorating and increasingly dispirited as the war dragged on due to many reasons.

so the Communist did what useful fighting during the war, especially from 1941-1945? please write a bit more, not just one line like harassing Japanese behind the front lines. harass what? and what did the Commies achieved that really made a useful contribution toward the Chinese war situation?

Wow... so you think that:

1. Manchukuo armies joined the Communists

2. the US only gave the KMT small arms and ammunition

3. 350k inexperienced troops can defeat 4.6 million professional soldiers

I think you pretty much made my case for me.
 
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