Siege of Changchun

vincent said:

I'm pretty sure the Nationalist forces can do it. They kicked the Japs' asses in Burma big time.
The morales of the Chinese forces are high because they are defending their homeland while the Japs are living on borrowed time. The Americans provided plenty of supplies and trainings to the Chinese forces, thus the Chinese forces were actually better equipped than the Japanese were
With the expected eventual defeat of the Japanese, the Chinese forces under the Japs most likely will turn or run away the first chance they get. The communists can harrase the Japs' supply lines. If the war drags on, it's only a matter of time till the Jap forces in China get smashed

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But do they have enough force to take back Manchuria? Japan has controlled that place for almost 2 decades, I would guess they already have a pretty stronghold there.

jackliu said:

How about near the end of the war, what if Japan acted like the Germans, that is they didn't surrender until they were pushed all the way back. I understand Japan was bogged down in the newly conquered lands, but did the Chinese army had enough force to push back Japan at the time? Oh and let's say the Soviet choose to NOT invade from the north, just Chinese army with maybe new supply from Burma supply line. Can they do it?

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I think Japan was already stretched to the limit at the end. Operation Ichi-Go was intended to be the last push. Everything they gathered for that last strike was the last they had. We all know that supply is THE key in any large-scale military operation. With nothing left to fight with, the Japanese would have no choice, but pulling back. They might not surrender, but they might have to either be killed or commit suicide.

from what I read, my understanding is that the Chinese troops pretty much stayed out of the way when the Japanese advanced during Ichi-Go since it was mentioned that the Nationalists conserved their strength and went back and attacked the Japanese who were trapped in the cities. So it could very much be a strategy by the Chinese to let the Japanese deplete their supplies without actually engaging them in combat and to only attack when they were tired and depleted. In fact, the Nationalists had been using variations of this strategy throughout the war. So it would not surprise me that they decided to do it again.

jackliu said:

But do they have enough force to take back Manchuria? Japan has controlled that place for almost 2 decades, I would guess they already have a pretty stronghold there.

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At the end of the WWII and before the start of the civil war, the Nationalists had 4.3 million troops, plus 1.2 million PLA. So total of 5.5 million Chinese troops. I think that's enough...



Check out the column on the right where the strength of the Nationalists and the CCP was listed. The # in 1945 would have been the # of troops that China had at the end of WWII.

vesicles said:

At the end of the WWII and before the start of the civil war, the Nationalists had 4.3 million troops, plus 1.2 million PLA. So total of 5.5 million Chinese troops. I think that's enough...

Check out the column on the right where the strength of the Nationalists and the CCP was listed. The # in 1945 would have been the # of troops that China had at the end of WWII.

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at end of WW2. Chinese Nationalist troops should be around 3.5 million troops ( 360 Divisions x 10K ). PLA 300K regular + irregular troops. Wang Jingwei puppet troops around 1 million.

the Chinese Communists greatly exaggerate it's troops strength. it is 300K regular + guerrillas. at most it is 500K combined. the Kuomintang military reports, US General Wedemeyer and General Hurley, Soviet diplomat Peter Vladimirov indicated that the CCP had around 300-500K troops at end of WW2. CCP General Zhu De wrote a letter to Chief of Staff Wedemyer requesting for arms and ammunition. Zhu De "accidentally" revealed that the CCP only had a 300K army.

vesicles said:

I think Japan was already stretched to the limit at the end. Operation Ichi-Go was intended to be the last push. Everything they gathered for that last strike was the last they had. We all know that supply is THE key in any large-scale military operation. With nothing left to fight with, the Japanese would have no choice, but pulling back. They might not surrender, but they might have to either be killed or commit suicide.

from what I read, my understanding is that the Chinese troops pretty much stayed out of the way when the Japanese advanced during Ichi-Go since it was mentioned that the Nationalists conserved their strength and went back and attacked the Japanese who were trapped in the cities. So it could very much be a strategy by the Chinese to let the Japanese deplete their supplies without actually engaging them in combat and to only attack when they were tired and depleted. In fact, the Nationalists had been using variations of this strategy throughout the war. So it would not surprise me that they decided to do it again.

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i thought after No.1 campaign, the Japanese tried to advance again on two fronts toward Chungking and Yunnan? the Japanese boasted that General Wedemeyer will be spending Christmas in India.

Generalissimo Chiang had to reinforce the defense leading to Chungking by redeploying 5 Divisions from Tungkwan Pass ( was that Hu Zongnan troops? ) and 2 Divisions of Y-Force returned from Burma.

lightspeed said:

i thought after No.1 campaign, the Japanese tried to advance again on two fronts toward Chungking and Yunnan? the Japanese boasted that General Wedemeyer will be spending Christmas in India.

Generalissimo Chiang had to reinforce the defense leading to Chungking by redeploying 5 Divisions from Tungkwan Pass ( was that Hu Zongnan troops? ) and 2 Divisions of Y-Force returned from Burma.

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But did they get anywhere? They were stuck in east China and could not move an inch into Sichua.

vesicles said:

At the end of the WWII and before the start of the civil war, the Nationalists had 4.3 million troops, plus 1.2 million PLA. So total of 5.5 million Chinese troops. I think that's enough...


Check out the column on the right where the strength of the Nationalists and the CCP was listed. The # in 1945 would have been the # of troops that China had at the end of WWII.

Click to expand...

But what was the industrial capacity for China back then? Can they produce enough ammo and firearms for the troops? I know Japan controls Manchuria, which makes them self sufficient, but what about Chinese industry inland.

was the Japanese army in China and Manchuria cut off from Japan by start of 1945? the US Navy reports indicated that they had successfully secured a 99% naval blockade of the Pacific and Mainland Japan in Jan 1945. but was it still possible for Japan to move troops to and from China & Japan through Korea? it's very hard for the US forces to successfully block off Japan troops transportation in the Sea of Japan.

so was there still big movement of Japanese Divisions from Japan to China/Manchuria/Korea from late 1944 onwards?

jackliu said:

But what was the industrial capacity for China back then? Can they produce enough ammo and firearms for the troops? I know Japan controls Manchuria, which makes them self sufficient, but what about Chinese industry inland.

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China had the entire Allied forces behind them, in term of support. Burma/India had been taken care of and the path from Burma/India to Yunnan and to Sichuan had been open. The supply line was secure. Plus, Sichuan province has always been self-sufficient since the ancient times. Yes, Manchuria was an industrial center, but none of its production could be sent to Japan islands. With its resources depleted, Japan had no way of sustaining itself. How could the Japanese troops keep fighting when their family was being starved to death? Without central control, how could the Japanese keep fighting at all? Further, Manchuria is thousands of miles away from central China. With the CCP/PLA (the whole 1.2 million worth) harrassing them behind the front line, it would be so difficult for the Japanese to maintain an effective supply line. How much of Manchuria's supply could actually be sent to the hands of the troops in the central China is a huge question.

As to China's supply. They could field a large force like that because they had enough supply. The fact that they could successfully organize and mobilize this huge force suggests that these troops were still loyal and disciplined, meaning that they were well-supplied. Otherwise, they would have a huge mutiny on their hands. No one would be dumb enough to recruit a force that large without knowing they have enough supply to support it. The Nationalists might be corrupted, but they were no fools. no one would put guns in the hands of millions of people who might not have enough to eat in a couple months... That's called suicide.

lightspeed said:

was the Japanese army in China and Manchuria cut off from Japan by start of 1945? the US Navy reports indicated that they had successfully secured a 99% naval blockade of the Pacific and Mainland Japan in Jan 1945. but was it still possible for Japan to move troops to and from China & Japan through Korea? it's very hard for the US forces to successfully block off Japan troops transportation in the Sea of Japan.

so was there still big movement of Japanese Divisions from Japan to China/Manchuria/Korea from late 1944 onwards?

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Pretty sure most of the troop/supply was cut off by US navy at that time. Japanese army in China was cut off from rest of Asia, so they have to be self sufficient from Manchuria's production alone.