Siege of Changchun

jackliu said:

vesicles look like you have a lot knowledge on the sino Japanese war.

From what I understand that Japan tried very hard to conquer China, and unlike Germany invasion of Russia, where it was just stopped at Moscow/Stalingrad, Japanese army was able to keep pushing deeper and deeper into China, they were still gaining territory as late as 1944. However the more they conquer, the more they got bogged down. Until Soviet Union invaded from North.

I want to know, just before the Soviet invaded, what was the situation? If they had not invaded, did China have enough force to push back the Japanese army all the way back? Or, rather at the same time, can Japan still mount more invasion until they actually beat the Chinese force?

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No, the Japanese did not keep pushing and pushing. They were stopped cold from 1938. They basically only could push for about a year and half. They were held in wuhan for 2 years without being able to move an inch. Once they finally took Wuhan, they were again held in Changsha for another 2 years. So in central China, they suffered huge casualties, 100,000-200,000 and could hardly move. The fight in central China sucked everything out of them. Sme of the biggest battles ever fought in the history was fought there, involving over half a million troops at some point. You can imagine how much they had to invest in these huge fights. After 1943, they got only one division left to protect the homeland. That shows how depleted they were after fighting the Chinese in central China.

As to the Soviets. My understanding is that at the end of '44 and early '45, most of the elite divisions that the Japanese had in China were already wiped out. The Nationalists already began their push back, successfully. With their resources seriously depleted, including troops, weapons, even food, it would be difficult for the Japanese to stand their ground. So their loss was eminent, with or without the Soviets. Let's face it, the Soviets was no fool. It was no coincidence that they waited until the last moment to attack the Manchuria. The Chinese were desperately in need of any help 1937-1945. The Soviets was literally next door and they had massive divisions stationed at the border. Yet they waited until the very last moment to do anything.

BTW, you made it sound like the Germans did not push far. The fact is Moscow was the last stand. If the Germans took Moscow, it would be the end of the Soviets.

I was under the impression that Operation Ichi-Go which was started in 1944, was actually a major tactical victory for Japan, they actually push back China all the way towards inland. And if not for America and Soviet intervention, things would gone very badly for China. no? One can argue that that more Japan conquer, the harder for them to control the lands. But I am wondering after Ichi-Go, did China had enough strength to push back Japan on it is own?

As for Soviet Union, I think even after Moscow falls, it will not be a walk in the park for Germans, it is very likely they will move their industry more to the east, and establish new base of operation. I mean this is what happened to China, the capital and all major coastal cites fall very quickly, but they were able to keep moving back towards inland.

vincent said:

One more thing I want to add about the Japanese invasion of Manchuria. At the time the troops at the area are poorly equiped and poorly trained, no armour and no air force. It's highly doubtful they can resist the Japs for long. I heard from somewhere that the guerrila left behind got wipeout. That shows how much support the Chinese troops can get from the populace.

I highly recommend two books: 国破山河在 and 尊严不是无代价的 by 萨苏. He gathered historic documents from the Japanese archives to show what the Chinese forces did
I would have uploaded the file if I can

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Well, those troops might not be as elite as the Japanese troops, but they could still pack a punch. These were the same troops led by Zhang Zuolin, the warlord who kept the Japanese at bay for many years. In fact, the Japanese was so frustrated with Zhang that they finally decided to assassinate him, instead of challenging him face-to-face. Once he was killed, they then began their attack. So these troops could fight if given the order. And the Japanese were seriously worried about these units. Sadly, they were ordered to pull back...

jackliu said:

I was under the impression that Operation Ichi-Go which was started in 1944, was actually a major tactical victory for Japan, they actually push back China all the way towards inland. And if not for America and Soviet intervention, things would gone very badly for China. no? One can argue that that more Japan conquer, the harder for them to control the lands. But I am wondering after Ichi-Go, did China had enough strength to push back Japan on it is own?

As for Soviet Union, I think even after Moscow falls, it will not be a walk in the park for Germans, it is very likely they will move their industry more to the east, and establish new base of operation. I mean this is what happened to China, the capital and all major coastal cites fall very quickly, but they were able to keep moving back towards inland.

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Yes, it was a tactical success, nothing more. There was little strategic gain. Here is what the wiki says about the operation:

The Japanese successes in Operation ichi-Go had limited effect on the war. The U.S. could still bomb the Japanese homeland from Saipan and other pacific bases. The Japanese forces could only control the cities but not their surrounding countryside. The increased size of the occupied territory also thinned out the Japanese lines. A great majority of the Chinese forces were able to retreat out of the area, and later come back to attack Japanese positions. As a result future Japanese attempts to fight into Sichuan, such as in the Battle of West Hunan, ended in failure. All in all Japan was not any closer in defeating China after this operation, and the constant defeats the Japanese suffered in the Pacific meant that Japan never got the time and resources needed to achieve final victory over China.

vesicles said:

Yes, it was a tactical success, nothing more. There was little strategic gain. Here is what the wiki says about the operation:

The Japanese successes in Operation ichi-Go had limited effect on the war. The U.S. could still bomb the Japanese homeland from Saipan and other pacific bases. The Japanese forces could only control the cities but not their surrounding countryside. The increased size of the occupied territory also thinned out the Japanese lines. A great majority of the Chinese forces were able to retreat out of the area, and later come back to attack Japanese positions. As a result future Japanese attempts to fight into Sichuan, such as in the Battle of West Hunan, ended in failure. All in all Japan was not any closer in defeating China after this operation, and the constant defeats the Japanese suffered in the Pacific meant that Japan never got the time and resources needed to achieve final victory over China.

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Yes, I am well aware of what the wiki have said, but don't you find it surprising that as late as 1944, Japan was still able to make territory gains and have successful battles? Which, is a totally different situation for them in the pacific, once they started to losing to Americans, they never had the chance, and same thing goes for Germans, once they stopped gaining ground in Russia, it was all down hill for them, but somehow Japan was still able to win battles near the very end of the war.

Also I wonder just how much benefit did Manchukuo provided to Japan? How much resource was extracted for the war effort, was it a overall gain for them? The cost of occupation vs the economic benefit that it extracted. And I wonder how much did Japan actually pacify Manchuria, was it to the point that the people living there actually accepts the Japanese overlords? Was there any kind of insurgency like Vietnam or Iraq style.

One thing to note is that the number of chinese/Korean soldiers serving under Japan's flag were almost as many if not more than the actual Japanese troops themselves.

They probably won't fight well in front line but they could be used to guard areas already conquered.

NRA killed lots of other Chinese troops fighting for Japanese, possibly equal or even more than Japanese soldiers killed.

I wonder if they would be considered as Japanese or Chinese casualties.


Japanese gain by 1940,


In 1944, you can see not much gain has been made in 3-4 years:


Ichigo mainly pushed south, and only at certain key points with heavy casulties.

vesicles said:

Yes, it was a tactical success, nothing more. There was little strategic gain. Here is what the wiki says about the operation:

The Japanese successes in Operation ichi-Go had limited effect on the war. The U.S. could still bomb the Japanese homeland from Saipan and other pacific bases. The Japanese forces could only control the cities but not their surrounding countryside. The increased size of the occupied territory also thinned out the Japanese lines. A great majority of the Chinese forces were able to retreat out of the area, and later come back to attack Japanese positions. As a result future Japanese attempts to fight into Sichuan, such as in the Battle of West Hunan, ended in failure. All in all Japan was not any closer in defeating China after this operation, and the constant defeats the Japanese suffered in the Pacific meant that Japan never got the time and resources needed to achieve final victory over China.

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jackliu said:

Yes, I am well aware of what the wiki have said, but don't you find it surprising that as late as 1944, Japan was still able to make territory gains and have successful battles?

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This is the key. The Japanese had overwhelming firepower against the Chinese. They had air, armor, and artillery support while the Chinese struggled to give enough bullets to their soldiers. However, the Japanese could never secure any territory to the point that it could leverage its resources toward the war.

Oh they were able to raise troops and mine resources, but what they gained were barely more than what they lost to the constant attacks from resistance fighters (of which the Eighth Route Army was a part), and the expense they incurred from having to station troops across those vast territories.

In other words, any resources the Japanese could muster from Chinese territories that they conquered, they had to spend almost all of it on just keeping that territory under their control. The net result is that they gained very little from their victories.

Lezt said:

Hey Vince,

Do you have any thing in the English language? A lot of us are deficient in Chinese.

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Sorry man, I don't have any related books in English

From what I read from the books, both Nationalist and the communist were holding back their forces near the end because they know the Japs are beaten and they want to conserve their strength to fight each other. Near the end of the war, the Nationalist are much better equipped than before. Their firepower is equal if not superior to the Japs thanks to the supports from the Americans.

As for resources extracted from China and Korea, my understanding is that the American subs are so effective that no resources were able to reach Japan.

solarz said:

This is the key. The Japanese had overwhelming firepower against the Chinese. They had air, armor, and artillery support while the Chinese struggled to give enough bullets to their soldiers. However, the Japanese could never secure any territory to the point that it could leverage its resources toward the war.

Oh they were able to raise troops and mine resources, but what they gained were barely more than what they lost to the constant attacks from resistance fighters (of which the Eighth Route Army was a part), and the expense they incurred from having to station troops across those vast territories.

In other words, any resources the Japanese could muster from Chinese territories that they conquered, they had to spend almost all of it on just keeping that territory under their control. The net result is that they gained very little from their victories.

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How about near the end of the war, what if Japan acted like the Germans, that is they didn't surrender until they were pushed all the way back. I understand Japan was bogged down in the newly conquered lands, but did the Chinese army had enough force to push back Japan at the time? Oh and let's say the Soviet choose to NOT invade from the north, just Chinese army with maybe new supply from Burma supply line. Can they do it?

I'm pretty sure the Nationalist forces can do it. They kicked the Japs' asses in Burma big time.
The morales of the Chinese forces are high because they are defending their homeland while the Japs are living on borrowed time. The Americans provided plenty of supplies and trainings to the Chinese forces, thus the Chinese forces were actually better equipped than the Japanese were
With the expected eventual defeat of the Japanese, the Chinese forces under the Japs most likely will turn or run away the first chance they get. The communists can harrase the Japs' supply lines. If the war drags on, it's only a matter of time till the Jap forces in China get smashed