Should China respect sanctions on Iran?

SampanViking

The Capitalist
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
I am with plawolf most firmly on this one. You cannot turn a blind eye to proliferation on some occasions (Israel) or cynically break the rules in others (India) and then expect people to take your moral outrage seriously when you point to the countries you do not like.

Its a good illustration of how the balance of global power is shifting, that the US can no longer make up the rules of the game to suit it as it goes along and that if it is really serious about Non-Proliferation and not simply dealing in soundbites, it will need to address the problem as a whole and play an even hand.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
@plawolf: why do you believe that mutual disarmament between Iran and Israel has any chance of success, when even India and Pakistan are unable to disarm? In fact, why do you believe that any country in the world, would give up its nuclear weapons once it has acquired it?

Because of the very unique set of circumstances Iran finds itself it.

India and Pakistan are a bad example because India has far grander ambitions then merely dominating Pakistan. India wants to claim a place at the world's top table and be able to match China in every way so it has no choice but to nuke up. And Pakistan cannot give up its nukes because of Indian weapons.

However, if say, China came knowing on India's door and offered to fully disarm in exchange for India doing the same, do you think the Indians would not think very long and hard about that offer? of course China cannot make such an offer because of American, British, Russian and French weapons and all these countries will point to each other's nuclear arsenals as reasons why they can't disarm.

However, this is not such an issue in the middle east.

Israel cannot point to someone else's nuclear weapons and honestly claim that their weapons are a deterrent against them, so their argument for why they need nuclear weapons are completely unjustifiable. Especially in the face of their conventional dominance.

Iran wants to be a leading power of the region, but they can never do that with Israeli nuclear weapons a constant threat. No matter how much they develop their conventional forces, it all counts for nought against an Israeli nuclear attack.

However, if Israel lost its nuclear weapons and Iran was free from sanctions and able to do business with the entire world freely, then they can fully exploit their natural resources and aim to become as wealthy as Saudi Arabia, Dubai or any of the other oil rich gulf states. With that kind of wealth and new access to western and eastern technologies, Iran would have a very good chance to achieve the position it wants for itself without a need for nuclear weapons.

In other words, Iran can get what it wants without nuclear weapons provided Israel disarm.

Making such an offer at the same time as their nuclear test would also throw the UN into chaos and effectively head off all threat of sanctions and condemnation and neatly shift all the pressure onto Israel.

This would be like Iran saying, 'well we gone and broke our word and developed a banned weapon, but we did it not because we covet such a device but as a desperate act to force you, the the world, to deal with a wrong you have been happy to ignore for decades - Israeli nuclear weapons. Now do what is right and make them disarm and we will gladly do the same, or do nothing and prove all your rhetoric about a nuclear free world to be total crap and STFU.'

No matter how the west plays it, Iran wins, and that will boost their influence and position far more effectively then any amount of nuclear weapons.

Somehow I can see Ahmadinejad positively rubbing his hands together and licking his lips with glee at the prospect of standing in front of the UN assembly and delivering such a speech and savoring the look on the faces of the US and Israeli delegations. That alone may be enough to sell this idea to him.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
You've forgotton Cuba The descendents of the Spanish colonisers,..the Castro brothers and other members of the ruling elite look pretty white to me Theyve suffered more than 50yrs of American trade embargoes.

And dont forget many Jews do have the same coloring as their Arab cousins. We just get use to seeing the European Jew.

By that definition Mexicans look 'kinda white', and how are they treated in the land of the free?

A better example would have been South Africa, but how was the sanctions placed on them in comparison to that placed on Iraq?

Ooops again, in this instance I was thinking of the combined total wealth of Western Countries V Asian countries.

And how much of that wealth is disposable or tangible? Its silly to point to a massive list of assets and declare 'look how wealthy I am!' while ignoring the bigger list of liabilities that cancels out much of your wealth. Its also dangerous and irresponsible to keep printing debt and assume that a) the world will keep giving you money for it and that b) that you will be able to afford to pay up when that debt falls due.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
I am with plawolf most firmly on this one. You cannot turn a blind eye to proliferation on some occasions (Israel) or cynically break the rules in others (India) and then expect people to take your moral outrage seriously when you point to the countries you do not like.

Its a good illustration of how the balance of global power is shifting, that the US can no longer make up the rules of the game to suit it as it goes along and that if it is really serious about Non-Proliferation and not simply dealing in soundbites, it will need to address the problem as a whole and play an even hand.

Thank you! Its good to see that there are fair and rational voices out there. :)
 

HalfBlind

Just Hatched
Registered Member
Now the situation is not good, the Chinese navy in the South China Sea, training, Pakistan military exercises and Iran, parade, you see those missiles of Iran come from? China has to prepare for a war. Who is the enemy, the answer is obvious.
 

LostWraith

New Member
@plawolf: I think your point is actually pretty good, but why do you think Israel would agree to this? If Iran acquired from nuclear weapons and is currently suffering from the crippling sanctions, why wouldn't Israel just ignore the offer and let Iran starve on its own?
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
I am with plawolf most firmly on this one. You cannot turn a blind eye to proliferation on some occasions (Israel)



Israel very much left to her own devices since her inception post ww2 and surrounded by hostile Arab nations bent on her destruction, developed nuclear weapons to be used as as a last resort. In fact, financed by the oil rich states, the Arabs were prepared to "fight to the last Egyptian," which was the cynical remark doing the rounds during that period.

The fact that she refrained from using the nuclear option despite the urging of her military and some political leaders when facing defeat by Arab forces during the "Yom Kippur war of 73 demonstrates to the world that Israel was and still is a trusted nuclear custodian.

The same can hardly be said for Ajad and Iran who believe in something like a nuclear catastrophe for the coming of the hidden Iman.
 
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plawolf

Lieutenant General
@plawolf: I think your point is actually pretty good, but why do you think Israel would agree to this? If Iran acquired from nuclear weapons and is currently suffering from the crippling sanctions, why wouldn't Israel just ignore the offer and let Iran starve on its own?

Well thank you, and Israel will not get to simply ignore the issue because as soon as Iran makes such an offer, all the pressure and attention will be switched instantly onto Israel and its backers.

Iran would be able to turn every single argument used against it on Israel and anyone in the west who tries to play double standards. Hell, all they need to do is make a mix tape and play the American, British and Israel UN delegations their own righteous indignation right back at them to justify crippling sanctions if Israel refuses to play ball.

Either the west holds its hands up and act in a truly fair and just manner and treat Israel no differently as Iran, or show publicly to the world that all its rhetoric on nuclear disarmament is nought but a sham and loose all credibility to demand sanctions against Iran.

No matter how Israel and the west plays this, Iran wins. Be it the total disarmament of Israel's secret nuclear arsenal or the totally collapse of sanctions and a legitimate excuse to keep its nuclear weapons free of consequence.

The only question remaining would be are western leaders smart and decisive enough to cut their losses and turn this into a win-win and ride the middle east of nuclear weapons, or loose all credibility in the eyes of the world and much of their own population.

Israel might want to do nothing, but its western backers have everything to loose and a great deal to gain to see that Israel gives up its own weapons.

In the end, I believe that self interest and self preservation will do the rest.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Israel very much left to her own devices since her inception post ww2 and surrounded by hostile Arab nations bent on her destruction, developed nuclear weapons to be used as as a last resort. In fact, financed by the oil rich states, the Arabs were prepared to "fight to the last Egyptian," which was the cynical remark doing the rounds during that period.

The fact that she refrained from using the nuclear option despite the urging of her military and some political leaders when facing defeat by Arab forces during the "Yom Kippur war of 73 demonstrates to the world that Israel was and still is a trusted nuclear custodian.

The same can hardly be said for Ajad and Iran who believe in something like a nuclear catastrophe for the coming of the hidden Iman.

Desperate, desperate stuff.

Now you are appealing to sentiment and some implied historical burden to justify Israeli nuclear weapons? Why not bring the nazi concentration camps in if you are playing this game?

If you haven't noticed, the world has moved on a bit since '73. Wasn't it you who was bring up all the peaceful neighbors Israel now have a few posts back?

And the Israel of today is not the Israel of '73. They have the conventional might to more then look after themselves. And so what if they don't? Are you arguing that they have the right to resort to nuclear weapons if it looks like the 'arab hoards' might beat them conventionally? Starting to show your true colors I see...

And please! Bringing in obscure religious scripture as evidence of intent to start a nuclear war? You can't be serious! :rolleyes:

If you want to play that game, at least be fair and point of the christian nutters rambling on about the rise of the antichrist in the east or similar nonsense that also warn of the coming apocalypse. What does any of this prove and what has it got to do with anything we are discussing? :rolleyes:
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Desperate, desperate stuff............
Wasn't it you who was bring up all the peaceful neighbors Israel now have a few posts back?


I dont think, so neither does a very quick check back to my first post (115) do I say anything like that.

Im not being desparate, merely responding to Sampans post. In fact it is most fortutious that Israel did have a nuclear weapon, otherwise she would have been struck from the pages of history.

And the Israel of today is not the Israel of '73. They have the conventional might to more then look after themselves. And so what if they don't?
I don't consider that ancient history. It was the fact that Israel had a nuclear deterrent and might use it, which prompted the USA to get involved, and thus preventing Israel from being defeated in a coventional manner
Judging from your reply you consider the destruction of Israel inconsequential, which makes you no different to me , in my stance towards Iran.

Starting to show your true colors I see...

No No No
I have never changed my stance infact right from post 115 Ive called for a surgical strike on Iran's nuclear facilities and pointing out my fellow neo cons, call for something far worse should Iran want to make a fight of it.

If anything at one point I even conceded to your suggestions in acknowledging they had some merit, but pointing out that vested interests and other factors, would prevent it from happening
 
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