Should China respect sanctions on Iran?

jantxv

New Member
You still insist on this nonsense. Please read post #141

I have read your posts. We may have to agree to disagree. If your side of the issue truly believes that it is in the interests of China's strategic defense to oppose sanctions, then there is no debate, only monologue. Of course, the converse is true as well.

However, for those of us who hold with grave concern the near fate of China embroiling herself in affairs far from her borders, we have not heard of any reasons, save misguided vengeance, to risk Chinese treasure or blood.

Why should the Chinese economy and people be put at risk for the Persians? China is not a war mongering nation. Chinese seek peace, stability, and harmony. How is being defiant to global sanctions to a singular far off land make China more secure? China has nothing to prove. There is oil in many parts of the world, China has the money to buy elsewhere.

Do not talk to us as if China is the leader and defender of colonial mis-deeds. China is not some super hero taking on the "White Man's Burden" of the entire Third World.

We are pragmatic. Talk of our "Poor Brown Brothers" will not elicit a single teardrop from our eyes. Tell us why you would risk shedding Chinese blood & treasure for Persia without the colonial victim-hood complex.
 

Red Moon

Junior Member
Tell us why you would risk shedding Chinese blood & treasure for Persia without the colonial victim-hood complex.
This sounds like a threat. But who is making this threat? As a member of the security council, China can veto any resolution. Why do you think this puts China at risk. Are you over-interpreting remarks by Clinton or Obama?

Of course we do disagree on the sanctions, and specifically on where China's interest lie. But the NONSENSE I am referring to is actually something MUCH MORE SPECIFIC. I will quote you again:
Iranian and Israeli national identities and actions are driven by religious, not secular motivations.
and
funds organizations with weaponry and training that espouse their own religious leanings
The Iranian and the Israeli regimes are actually BOTH quite pragmatic. Every aspect of their foreign policies can be explained according to their "national" or state interests, without any reference to religion whatsoever. Post #141 shows specifically how this works with Iranian foreign policy. I'm not going to go into Israeli policy, since that's not actually the topic here.
 

Mr T

Senior Member
I strongly believe that the Chinese leadership does not want a nuclear Iran, but would like to stop short of crippling sanctions due to economic interests in Iran. The US would like to cripple Iran so as to inspire/install a more pro-US regime to acquire the economic interests there that it currently does not have. At the very least, a crippling sanction will prevent other countries such as Russia and China from obtaining the resources that the US cannot access.

1. The US doesn't need Iranian resources at the moment. It doesn't really care whether countries buy Iranian oil, the only issue is stopping them going nuclear.
2. The US would settle for Iran's politics staying as they are if the nukes went.
3. What if crippling sanctions are the only way to stop Iran going nuclear? Talking and finger wagging hasn't worked so far. Why will it work this year? China can't have it both ways, it will need to choose. This is what worries me about China, it has yet to make tough decisions about its foreign policy. It always wants to have its cake and eat it.
 

xywdx

Junior Member
Why are we talking on the basis that Iran is making nukes?
They are enriching up to 20%, which is well within the reasonable range for medical use.
Enriched Uranium is needed to produce many radioactive isotopes for medical diagnosis, particularly Moly99.

Right now all the Moly99 is produced from nuclear reactors, in which 20% Uranium is required.
There is possibly one other way to produce this isotope and that is by using photo-fission. Right now only one North American installation is working on this technique using a highly controlled Linear Electron Accelerator(LEA).

If Obama agrees to transfer photo-fission and LEA technology to Iran then I guess he can knock away most of Iran's reasons for uranium enrichment.
 

Engineer

Major
It is always a good idea to read what the other person have said, then respond accordingly, instead of replying what you've imagined the other person have said.

US, france, europe, japan, and many other asia country, do a gooogle search u find plenlty source, not just western media.
Waving your hands in the air, cite a handfull of random countries, then tell me to google myself is not providing backup to an argument. If you are so certain that hundres of media corps reported the samething, then that means you have either read all of them, or have a source whose author has read all of them. When neither is true, then the claim is groundless.

do some search on baidu or xinhua, or whatever website you trust. there are plenty comments from iran president indicate he want blow up israel.
No. You search and find an audio clip of Ahmadinejad saying he wants to "utterly destroy Israel" (in Persian), or find an Iranian source which quote Ahmadinejad saying it. It doesn't matter what other media have said, because they have a bad history of making up stories. Also, just because alot of Western media reported the samething, that doesn't make it a fact. Back in the middle age, almost everybody believed that the Earth is flat and that it is at the center of the Universe. It doesn't make them right. It is the same deal here with Western media.

if you think western media is bias, then you should read mainland chinese media, oh wait they jailed anyone who criticize the government. so basically everything reported in china is good news.
What Chinese media does or does not do do not make Western media any less bias. Also, plenty of people in China critize the government, especially the American government, and they aren't in jail.
 

Red Moon

Junior Member
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This article appeared a few days ago. I think the author hits the nail on the head as to the reasons the US side is so adamant at this time. The most interesting thing about it, however, is that contrary to what is being said in the West, the author pretty much assumes that Obama/Clinton are not actually looking for "crippling" sanctions, but have settled for a show instead. I think this is the second article I've seen from a Chinese source that basically makes this assumption. This article argues that this is a stupid exercise.
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
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This article appeared a few days ago. I think the author hits the nail on the head as to the reasons the US side is so adamant at this time. The most interesting thing about it, however, is that contrary to what is being said in the West, the author pretty much assumes that Obama/Clinton are not actually looking for "crippling" sanctions, but have settled for a show instead. I think this is the second article I've seen from a Chinese source that basically makes this assumption. This article argues that this is a stupid exercise.

Time to start sorting out the necessary ordnance for the airwings
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Waving your hands in the air, cite a handfull of random countries, then tell me to google myself is not providing backup to an argument. If you are so certain that hundres of media corps reported the samething, then that means you have either read all of them, or have a source whose author has read all of them. When neither is true, then the claim is groundless.

In case you haven't noticed I have already retracted my statement about a couple hundred countries to the the "worlds reputable newspapers"

You are only being obstructive/obstinate , and letting your own bias against the western newspapers from acknowledging that Iran's leadership did, and continues to make inflammatory speeches against Israel.

Its not just the Western Press, the remark was made by Ajad at a Conference called " A world without Zionism" which I remember watching on "El Jazerra". Subsequent debates on the matter shown on "El Jazerra" and elsewhere, revealed that the term "Wiped off the Map" was first used by the IRNA, which is Iran's propaganda dept. world newspapers/ television picked up on the "quote" and ran with it.

In fact the Iranians have never denied the making of an inflammatory statment their defence merely consisting of..." taken out of Context" " exaggerated the statement" or Ajad didn't say it, he was merely quoting the deceased ayatollah Khomenei and so on.

If you still want to pursue the matter I suggest you write to the "Washington Post" and ask for a transcript of Lally Weymouth's interview with Ajad made in Sept 2006. ( I cant give you a direct link otherwise I would).

In it Weymouth continually asks Ajad about the statement in question to which he continually sidesteps. Now what does that suggest .... ?
 
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xywdx

Junior Member
In it Weymouth continually asks Ajad about the statement in question to which he continually sidesteps. Now what does that suggest .... ?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say this suggest Ajad doesn't endorse the statement.

And here a quote to give you something to think about.
we are led to believe that Iran's President threatened to "wipe Israel off the map", despite never having uttered the words "map", "wipe out" or even "Israel"
 

ravenshield936

Banned Idiot
In case you haven't noticed I have already retracted my statement about a couple hundred countries to the the "worlds reputable newspapers"

You are only being obstructive/obstinate , and letting your own bias against the western newspapers from acknowledging that Iran's leadership did, and continues to make inflammatory speeches against Israel.

Its not just the Western Press, the remark was made by Ajad at a Conference called " A world without Zionism" which I remember watching on "El Jazerra". Subsequent debates on the matter shown on "El Jazerra" , revealed that the term "Wiped off the Map" was first used by the IRNA, which is Iran's propaganda dept. world newspapers/ television picked up on the "quote" and ran with it.

In fact the Iranians have never denied the making of an inflammatory statment their defence merely consisting of..." taken out of Context" " exaggerated the statement" or Ajad didn't say it, he was merely quoting the deceased ayatollah Khomenei and so on.

If you still want to pursue the matter I suggest you write to the "Washington Post" and ask for a transcript of Lally Weymouth's interview with Ajad made in Sept 2006. ( I cant give you a direct link otherwise I would).

In it Weymouth continually asks Ajad about the statement in question to which he continually sidesteps. Now what does that suggest .... ?

honestly, there's no need/interests/passion for us to be anti-western media. there's no fun doing that. it's simply the fact that they ARE indeed biased.

u want examples?

if u look up on globe and mail on 8/8/2008 or 8/9/2008, the headlines for the cover story of beijing's olympics opening ceremony reads "totalitarian success"that's 2/5ths of the cover page photo, which depicts the flag party raising the flag. the idea is so obvious it's bias. and to strengthen my point, when the uyjhur massacres happened, the entire paper went on to do nothing but blame the hans. the "suppression" vs "peaceful protests"

and that's canada

there are simply way more stories
i'll give u an example
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read all about it

also don't forget the infamous incidents where they labelled han victims as "the minorities" when clearly the han names are right above the bed, and the patients are hans themselves.

then u have those photos of government units trying to bring victims to safety being labelled as "protestors taken away", and that infamous photo of an old woman in front of a column of government units. that was intentionally prepared to remind others of the 6/4 event

wt the west does was simply to badmouth the chinese, or whoever they're ignorant against.

i wont be surprised they' deliberately tried to antagonize the iranians, after all with the president being not a favorite one by the west.

in my viewpoint, i dont trust tehran, but i definitely wont trust teh western media. only the average iranian knows wt's going on. the political event? who knows the truth to it, but definitely one thing for sure: can't just trust one side of the story, esp. believing solely the reports by those reported by the west.

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Also on March 24, Toronto Star asked in an online poll: "Is China a good country to host the Olympics?" Online results show that 76% say yes and 23 say no. However, when the newspaper published the result the next day, it became "Yes 17%" and "No 82%".

A campaign to write to Mike Duffy and the Toronto Star was launched online.

One poster wrote: "Now I understand why China didn't allow these western media to go into Tibet. No matter if they are in Tibet or not, they have already made up their mind about how they would fabricate their lies... (a Chinese old saying) Don't worry about not finding a reason if you are determined to charge people."
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The west should stop using its rhetoric of democracy and liberty and force it upon other countries.. I wanna borrow a few lines by Paul Well of the Macleans when he writes about the Georgian/Russian conflict:

What’s killing Georgia today — besides hordes of Russian soldiers and irregulars — is Western rhetoric about democracy and liberty, and the reluctance or inability of assorted peddlers of that rhetoric to check it, now and then, against reality.
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China blamed for master-minding patriotic protests



The Times of India published an editorial title "Counter View: Chinese have a right to protest". Quite interesting.

....Although the protests may be stage-managed, as some have suggested, there is every indication that the depth of nationalistic fervour in China has taken even the government by surprise. Restraint is being urged at every step, though the government has stopped short of outright condemnation. In any case, these protests are as legitimate as those in Paris or London. Portraying the outcry as merely a sham is to ignore the danger that an alienated China poses to the world. If the Chinese are feeling offended, perhaps it is time for the rest of the world to try to understand their grievance.

Pushing China into a corner is unlikely to help the world. It will merely achieve a growth in militant Nationalism that will, in a sense, allow the government to continue its human rights violations. In other words, an image of China as a nation beset by unfair attacks might lead to it becoming even more hostile to the views of the western world.

The divide between how the Chinese view themselves and how they are perceived in the world should be narrowed instead of making it wider. It will be wise, therefore, to engage China on different terms and avoid tensions from spiralling out of hand over the Olympics, which the Chinese are justifiably proud of being called upon to host.

Compared to a commentary appeared in Time:

The biggest risk for the Chinese government is that the protests simmer until the Beijing Summer Olympics begin in August. The authorities hope to show the world how China has changed in the three decades since Deng Xiaoping launched economic reforms. But it will be difficult to present a friendly, progressive face to the world if citizens are indulging in anti-foreign antics.

Okay.

When Chinese protest, it's indulgence. When Tibetans protest, it's for freedom.

This is how the Wall Street Journal portrays the protests:

Condemnation of Chinese government policies is being received in China as attacking the nation as a whole, arousing public resentment. The most vocal responses are seen overseas as government-sanctioned nationalism run amok, further reinforcing negative images of China.

When Chinese protest, they further reinforce negative images of China. When Tibetans protest, they put China's human rights record into the light.

From NYT:

In a sign that the government was still allowing anti-foreign sentiment to spill over into rare street demonstrations, thousands of people rallied on Sunday in front of Carrefour markets in six cities, including two, Harbin and Jinan, where there had not been protests earlier.

...In recent days, the government has called on citizens to temper their fury at the West, but it has not acted to halt public demonstrations, which have been stoked by newspaper editorials, Internet postings and text messages sent to millions of cellphones.

On Sunday, the state-run People’s Daily newspaper called for a cooling of passions, although it stopped short of condemning the demonstrations or the spreading boycott campaign against French goods. “As citizens, we have the responsibility to express our patriotic enthusiasm calmly and rationally and express patriotic aspiration in an orderly and legal manner,” the newspaper said in a front-page editorial.

When Chinese protest -- peacefully -- they are brainwashed nationalists. When Tibetans protest -- violently -- they are fighters against oppression.

When China says the Dalai Lama is behind the Lhasa riots, it is China's attempt to vilify His Holiness. When Chinese protest, it is China who master-minding the whole thing.

So what do you want? You want to see the protesting Chinese being shot down as the way the Tibetan propaganda told you the Tibetans were? (I'm not saying China's state-owned media aren't hammering out propaganda. But please be aware that propaganda is from both sides; another article on propaganda in here.)

As the above Times of India editorial suggests, many westerns still believe these massive protests are sponsored by the Chinese government. The Chinese are still being seen as brainwashed nationalists with no ability to think independently. How sad.

On the Tibet issue, WSJ says:

Protests advocating Tibetan independence mystify most Chinese, who have been taught all their lives that Tibet has long been part of China. And the deeply emotional Chinese response to the Tibet protests has also surprised some Westerners.

The western media should also asked if they have been taught all their lives that Tibet has never been part of China.

The following paragraph seems to be used as balancing, but the phrase "albeit still limited" is still judgemental. "Limited" in what standard? Who set those standards? Why can't you reflect on the fact that China has made a lot of progress in merely 30 years? Compare the current state with what it was.... not comparing with the West who has enjoyed industrialization and economic development for over 100 years.

Many Chinese who are critical of their own government also feel Western condemnations of China fail to acknowledge its advances in recent decades, from lifting hundreds of millions of people out of poverty to expanding the freedoms -- albeit still limited -- that Chinese enjoy.

To the West: please try to understand why we are angry. Think about if you were us.

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