Shenyang next gen combat aircraft thread

[GTI]

You go on about P-47 yet end of the day it will be referred as fighters. We had like 5 similar technological breakthrough, yet fighter remains. You can invent sub roles for the fighter, like fighter bomber, frontline fighter, escort fighter, carrier fighter,air defense fighter, interceptor, drone fighter, but they are all fighters!

And in case you say"butbutbut fighter must be agile dog"fighter" like in WWI". J-20 does not have a gun, yet it will forever be called fighter. We are long past dogfighting, yet the name remained. J-36 is not new when it comes to not give a shit about dogfight. Nothing changed. It will be a fighter.

It may change our impression of fighter just like when we shifted from machine gun to BVR missiles, but the name will stay fighter in English, and it will stay as 战斗机 in Chinese.

Muskets are still called muskets. We didn’t change the name to assault rifle (or even just rifle) when something newer came along and changed tactics and doctrine. Rifles themselves started out as ‘rifled muskets’ and ‘rifled repeating muskets’. Canons on the other hand are still called cannons, and come in both smoothbore and rifled varieties.

They will all still be called fighters, because that’s what they are or were. It will be a historical reference point.

When there is no longer a distinction between F, B, A, R, SR, E, and the majority of airframes and doctrines reflect this - is when designations will start to change. And whoever gets there first, can define or call it whatever they want. Neither you nor I get to choose.

 

[tamsen_ikard]

In my opinion 6th gen would be the last gen fighter to operate off carriers, and that already with some compromise over operating doctrine due to size and different take-off/landing/carrier real estate constraints.

7th gen would likely be hypersonic capable space planes that can reorient itself anywhere once in orbit. It will be launched into orbit and in station on rotating rosters. Similar to how the US used to have various carriers stationed around the world there will be a few planes stationed in orbits.

Rocket equation guarantees space capable planes will never be viable. Don't forget the expensive disaster that was the Space Shuttle. That is the space plane. A true space plane will need huge rocket boosters to get into orbit.

 

[tankphobia]

Rocket equation guarantees space capable planes will never be viable. Don't forget the expensive disaster that was the Space Shuttle. That is the space plane. A true space plane will need huge rocket boosters to get into orbit.

If you're going to send a plane to space armed with missiles, just skip the plane and send bigger missiles. i.e ballistic missiles.

 

[kurutoga]

Rocket equation guarantees space capable planes will never be viable. Don't forget the expensive disaster that was the Space Shuttle. That is the space plane. A true space plane will need huge rocket boosters to get into orbit.

You are right. But in this context we discuss planes operating in the near space (20km to 100km). And, more specifically the fighter jet we are talking about should operate around or below 30km because the targets you want to destroy are all below 20km. Not true space planes.

 

[Ironhide]

J-XS are fine

Why J-XS when numerous people from Chinese side have already used J-50 ?

 

[Blitzo]

Why J-XS when numerous people from Chinese side have already used J-50 ?

I'm okay with J-50 as well, though at this stage it seems a little less confident than J-36, which has the "36011" airframe number to go with it. If we saw "50011" or something like that then I'd be pretty content to go with J-50.

 

[tphuang]

What does SAC project bring?

I have been wrestling with that.

one thing I notice is that since it’s designed to have naval variant, it will also be launchable from 076. That along with UCAVs can give 076 pretty strong attacking capabilities against anything outside of leading powers. Especially since its range would allow a fleet led by 076 to operate farther away and destroy enemy fire power before assisting amphibious assault. And it would certainly overwhelm carrier fleet of any navy not named USN. So that gives PLAN more options.

the other thing is how it may aid PLAN carrier fleet. If you have J-36 that can allow air superiority up to 3000 km out from mainland, that would presumably give carrier group freedom to operate that far out since then they would only need to worry about underwater threats. In the scenario where it have complete air control in the area, that makes it dangerous for SSNs to operate.

if you can have PLAN carrier group operate 3000 km away then attacking wake island, Palau and Alaska become quite viable.

using SAC 6th gen long range (lets say 2000 km combat radius), you might even be able to fly close enough toward Hawaii that you could even fire off 1000 km range missiles against USN fleet there. That’s a little harder to know.

but the effect of greater PLAN safe operating area + 2000 km combat radius certainly introduces new possibilities.

 

[Ironhide]

I'm okay with J-50 as well, though at this stage it seems a little less confident than J-36, which has the "36011" airframe number to go with it. If we saw "50011" or something like that then I'd be pretty content to go with J-50.

Indeed
But its given by Chinese watchers so doesn’t matter If the serial is 50011 or not we have to use J50 until they suggest otherwise.

 

[Biscuits]

To me it's pretty clear that a frontline fighter is still needed.

J-36 is like a mounted knight that can flank around or charge out from reserves during a decisive moment. Just like those, it is vulnerable if caught in wvr and unable to use it's superior mobility to disengage by a much larger force of men-at-arms/peasants (5th and 4.5th gen). Since after winning a few dogfights, the large plane will lose so much speed that an IRST equipped legacy fighter can just go up to it and hit it through its stealth and EW "armor".

The weakness of shock cavalry is that it can't be fielded in the same number as enemy foot infantry, even if they can nearly always beat them 1v1 and offer unparalled strategic options.

So China still needs its own line of contact foot infantry equivalents, which would ordinarily be J-20s, J-35s, J-16s etc. Here is where the J-XS(50?) comes in, it's like having a dismounted knight fighting among the ranks, bringing the J-36 protection level (stealth + EW) and superior fighting power into the main contact line.

When two lines of legacy fighters clash, having a few J-XS mixed in lets them mow down the opposition with ease unless the enemy also has their own dismounted knight equivalents.

 

[kurutoga]

What does SAC project bring?

I have been wrestling with that.

one thing I notice is that since it’s designed to have naval variant, it will also be launchable from 076. That along with UCAVs can give 076 pretty strong attacking capabilities against anything outside of leading powers. Especially since its range would allow a fleet led by 076 to operate farther away and destroy enemy fire power before assisting amphibious assault. And it would certainly overwhelm carrier fleet of any navy not named USN. So that gives PLAN more options.

the other thing is how it may aid PLAN carrier fleet. If you have J-36 that can allow air superiority up to 3000 km out from mainland, that would presumably give carrier group freedom to operate that far out since then they would only need to worry about underwater threats. In the scenario where it have complete air control in the area, that makes it dangerous for SSNs to operate.

if you can have PLAN carrier group operate 3000 km away then attacking wake island, Palau and Alaska become quite viable.

using SAC 6th gen long range (lets say 2000 km combat radius), you might even be able to fly close enough toward Hawaii that you could even fire off 1000 km range missiles against USN fleet there. That’s a little harder to know.

but the effect of greater PLAN safe operating area + 2000 km combat radius certainly introduces new possibilities.

SAC jet also carries some (geo)political weight if it is allowed to be exported. On the US side, it is unlikely they will ever export 6th gen jets, so the SAC jet that can face the challenges of F-35 will be very highly sought after.

I wish both systems can share UCAVs and tankers. However it is probably way to early for that selection to be finalized.