Shenyang FC-31 / J-31 Fighter Demonstrator

Kurt said:

Which fifth generation definition? Eurofighter and F22/F35 bicker a lot about details of classification, maybe Sukhoi wants to join.

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Air Force Brat said:

Back on topic gentlemen, this isn't political science, this is Sino D and we are discussing the F-60 and her rumored and recent entry into the fifth gen arena!

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i'd say it's a 5th gen but without the stuffs that makes the F-35 and F-22 pocket burning expensive
some would call that level less that a fifth gen though

J-20 is the one truly at F-22/F-35 class

how do we know, the plane is not even revealed yet!?
well, it will make more sense that China does not want to gold plate every plane/thing

paintgun said:

i'd say it's a 5th gen but without the stuffs that makes the F-35 and F-22 pocket burning expensive
some would call that level less that a fifth gen though

J-20 is the one truly at F-22/F-35 class

how do we know, the plane is not even revealed yet!?
well, it will make more sense that China does not want to gold plate every plane/thing

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What would you say about the rumor that there's yet another no-lower-than-F-60 class of aircraft to come out soon?

Player99 said:

What would you say about the rumor that there's yet another no-lower-than-F-60 class of aircraft to come out soon?

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i'm abit more skeptical about the JH-7B
SAC's lost fifth gen contender however is a real project, and rumor has it that they plan to reveal it too
if they can pitch it as something interesting to the PLAAF, it might have a chance, say heavy twin engined stealth fighter with high numbers of AAM and customized avionics, that might be suitable for Northern/Japan scenarios

if the PLA(AF/AN) has an appetite for multiple LO platforms, it might not happen until the induction of the J-20 in numbers
they must first learn how to operate these aircraft in conjunctions and across the systems as a whole package
miss one aspect and it will render the stealth fighter vulnerable, like the F-117 shot down

only after that the PLAAF/AN will know what they want and if they need another stealth fighter

paintgun said:

i'm abit more skeptical about the JH-7B
SAC's lost fifth gen contender however is a real project, and rumor has it that they plan to reveal it too
if they can pitch it as something interesting to the PLAAF, it might have a chance, say heavy twin engined stealth fighter with high numbers of AAM and customized avionics, that might be suitable for Northern/Japan scenarios

if the PLA(AF/AN) has an appetite for multiple LO platforms, it might not happen until the induction of the J-20 in numbers
they must first learn how to operate these aircraft in conjunctions and across the systems as a whole package
miss one aspect and it will render the stealth fighter vulnerable, like the F-117 shot down

only after that the PLAAF/AN will know what they want and if they need another stealth fighter

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I strongly believe SAC and XAC have teamed up for the F60 bid. XAC's expertise in strike aircraft would have been a great help to SAC in designing a medium sized strike oriented 5th gen since the air dominance contract has already gone to CAC. Thus there won't be a JH7B.

SAC's heavy 5th gen is a dead project. They already pitched it to the PLAAF and the PLAAF chose the J20 over it. Re-packaging it and having another pitch meeting is not going to make the PLAAF reconsider unless the J20 project gets into serious trouble, and there is no indication of that at all.

As of right now, the F60 is a project in search of a home. The PLAAF seems perfectly happy with the J20 and would have no intention of making the same mistakes the USAF did with the F22. The PLANAF seems happy enough with the J15 at present, and may well not have the financial muscle to back the F60 even if they wanted to. That is why you are seeing the F60 being marketed at such an early stage.

SAC cannot, and would not want to even if it could, finance a 5th gen fighter development off their own back with little or no state funding and no idea if anyone would want to buy the finish product. I think there must have been a nod from somewhere promising them orders if they can make the plane work and not have it suck too much.

It would be interesting to see how they have worked the weapons bays. I have a feeling the F60 will look a great deal like the F35, but would probably have much smaller bays on account of the twin engined design taking up more internal space.

I hate to be pouring cold water on people's excitement about this plane, but I have a horrible feeling many of you might be disappointed as our expectations have been pumped sky high by the J20. With SAC's track record and the basic size and design of the F60, it might just turn out to be the fighter that makes F35 haters feel a little bit better about the F35.

I would really love to be proven wrong on that, but I am not holding my breath.

plawolf said:

It would be interesting to see how they have worked the weapons bays. I have a feeling the F60 will look a great deal like the F35, but would probably have much smaller bays on account of the twin engined design taking up more internal space.

I hate to be pouring cold water on people's excitement about this plane, but I have a horrible feeling many of you might be disappointed as our expectations have been pumped sky high by the J20. With SAC's track record and the basic size and design of the F60, it might just turn out to be the fighter that makes F35 haters feel a little bit better about the F35.

I would really love to be proven wrong on that, but I am not holding my breath.

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Personally, if J-21 turns out to be as good as any of the other 5th gen twin engine medium fighters (ATD-X/KAI KFX, AMCA, TFX etc) then I would be quite happy.
I don't think any of us expect J-21 to be "amazing". It probably won't be super manouverable, certainly less so than J-20, it should be stealthy from the frontal, and hopefully, side and underside (as opposed to F-35 whose stealth in those aspects are less than satisfcatory with its bumps and humps), and equipped with the sensors and sensor fusion one would expect from a 5th generation fighter (AESA, EO/DAS type system). If it can achieve a near F-35 combat radius and carry 4 AAMs internally along with all that then we shoudl not be dissappointed at all -- if future iterations are equipped with more powerful engines (not an impossibility, depending how much it ends up weighing and the projected WS-13B engines suggested) can allow for some level of supercruise then it will be amazing.
I think the excitement is arising mostly from the fact that if this thing makes its first flight in the next six months, it will be the second stealth fighter china will debut within two years, something few of us would have even considered a scant possibility three years ago (and probably something western "analysts" will decry and try to diminish even after it happens).

I agree with both Plawolf and Bltizo, based on my reading of the big shrimps' opinions. But I'd hate it if Plawolfs prediction about the F-60 materializes... Can't say it'd be a waste though. SAC and everyone else still would learn a lot from the effort and it'd be much, much better for SAC to try something than sitting there doing nothing.

When I asked Paintgun about the rumored third stealthy, I also had a navalized or simplified version of the J-20 on my mind. That, of course, I also got from the big shrimps.

paintgun said:

i'm abit more skeptical about the JH-7B
SAC's lost fifth gen contender however is a real project, and rumor has it that they plan to reveal it too
if they can pitch it as something interesting to the PLAAF, it might have a chance, say heavy twin engined stealth fighter with high numbers of AAM and customized avionics, that might be suitable for Northern/Japan scenarios

if the PLA(AF/AN) has an appetite for multiple LO platforms, it might not happen until the induction of the J-20 in numbers
they must first learn how to operate these aircraft in conjunctions and across the systems as a whole package
miss one aspect and it will render the stealth fighter vulnerable, like the F-117 shot down

only after that the PLAAF/AN will know what they want and if they need another stealth fighter

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I think you could be being a little pessimistic on this one. Not so much in terms of the overall spec of the aircraft (in which you could be quite right) but in terms of the role it is intended to play. Somebody a link to article that said the kind of thing I really like to read "70% of the capability of an F35 for 30% of the cost" Now clearly that is just an impression pulled from the nether regions, but the principal is sound enough, especially when "low cost and export driven" also make it in to the conversation.

So what do we think we have, a short range fighter with some data fusion, basic stealth characteristics and a limited payload, all bound together in a cost busting package that lowers the floor for entry level 5th Gen Aircraft.

Such an Aircraft may not be about to storm the bastions of enemy states, but it makes a fine and dandy mass replacement for the legacy J7 and J8 fleets and is certainly far more capable the JF-17.

The thing I admire most about China is that the country is not in a hurry over these kinds of things. They have very specific requirements and a strict budget to achieve them in. The more refined versions can wait for the next generation and there is no hurry, as; after all, China is the only country that will have the money to build any next generation and it knows it!

Player99 said:

I agree with both Plawolf and Bltizo, based on my reading of the big shrimps' opinions. But I'd hate it if Plawolfs prediction about the F-60 materializes... Can't say it'd be a waste though. SAC and everyone else still would learn a lot from the effort and it'd be much, much better for SAC to try something than sitting there doing nothing.

When I asked Paintgun about the rumored third stealthy, I also had a navalized or simplified version of the J-20 on my mind. That, of course, I also got from the big shrimps.

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I honestly have a little more hope for the F-60, for one its planform is far more practical for a naval variant than than the J-20s, I would imagine that they will take their time, after all look how long it took us to bring ATF and JSF to production and IOC. We tend to think everything happens when we think it should in aircraft design, but it all takes lots of time and money. So don't hold your breath, but have a realistic expectation of what it really takes to get a bird of any caliber up and running.

Air Force Brat said:

I honestly have a little more hope for the F-60, for one its planform is far more practical for a naval variant than than the J-20s, I would imagine that they will take their time, after all look how long it took us to bring ATF and JSF to production and IOC. We tend to think everything happens when we think it should in aircraft design, but it all takes lots of time and money. So don't hold your breath, but have a realistic expectation of what it really takes to get a bird of any caliber up and running.

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I guess, for a very large country (i.e., China), the F-60 will be too short legged if used as a land based J, JH, or multi role aircraft (J=F, JH=FB), in addition to all the problems people have atributed to the F-35, such as no supre cruise, weapons bays too small, etc. It'd be more suitable for small countries like Pakistan.

Player99 said:

I guess, for a very large country (i.e., China), the F-60 will be too short legged if used as a land based J, JH, or multi role aircraft (J=F, JH=FB), in addition to all the problems people have atributed to the F-35, such as no supre cruise, weapons bays too small, etc. It'd be more suitable for small countries like Pakistan.

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what about Super Hornet? is it suitable for a large country?