Shenyang FC-31 / J-31 Fighter Demonstrator

jobjed said:

Ahem.... I guess I'm a threat to myself then.... =(

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afraid so, but enjoy it while you can

jobjed said:

Is there any way for photos to be taken in a static stress testing facility in Yanliang? Otherwise, this thread would again become a speculation thread until the prototype flies.

On a side note: 20-25 million Chinese were killed in WW2, compared to 6 million Jews. Of course, to the West, Chinese casualties are irrelevant.

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Sure there are ways, but those are not the kind of lengths amateurs would normally want to go to. In addition, there would be significantly greater risk involved and probably far big consequences if you are caught.

There is a bit of an unspoken deal between the authorities and planes spotters, the spotters self censor anything they feel shouldn't be leaked and stay at well known facilities and locations and the authorities allow them to get a peek. But if they move sth to a remote testing facility, they want what's done there to be kept under wraps. Go snooping there and the kiddy gloves come off.

It is interesting, but I am willing to bet the normal haunt for planes spotters outside CAC must be monitored and may even be sth of a trogen house for foreign intelligence assets working inside China.

The plane spotting community is quite close knit and I am sure they would not hesitate from reporting anyone suspicious to the authorities.

The J20 would be a massive lure for foreign intelligence with it just sitting there doing regular flying. Bet they would just love to have an asset on the ground with fancy equipment to get some RCS readings. But odds are if they tried, they would lead Chinese counter intelligence right to their door step.

This is a little OT, but I think Chinese intelligence and counter-intelligent is massively underestimated by the west and ordinary Chinese themselves.

The likes of the OSS (MI5 and MI6 forerunner), CIA and KGB (FSS now) were largely conceived top down and in relative safety with some Lords or nobles or equivilant the driving force that created and shaped them according to their own views, opinions and ideas which help to shape and define these institutions even today, Chinese intelligence and counter-Intelligence ( I&CI) started from the ground up with reisitence fighters who had a real gift for fieldcraft who knew first hand what it means and takes to do the job.

The Chinese had over a century to practice it in real life on pretty much every major power and culture on earth as well as Chinese themselves. It wasn't some armchair general's idea of what I&CI is like, you were either right and very good at what you do, or you were dead. A training and selection process like that does not allow for fools or bad ideas and you learn extremely quickly what works and what gets people killed.

I have read some novels and seen some TV series based on journals of real life Chinese spies, and obviously some of it is sexed up and changed, but most of it is based on real events and it is very impressive. Hell, I remember reading a article about how Chinese intelligence actually managed to get the details of the Pearl Habor attack before it happened and passed it onto the British, who either didn't believe them, or decided to ignore the warning as they were desperate for America to get directly involved in the war.

There are also plenty of anecdotal evidence to show just how effective Chinese I&CI is. Others have already pointed out to the massive failures the CIA had with the Tibetan uprising and also with attempting to insert assets directly into China (they even made an internal instructional short film about it). In addition, you can look to the East.

Communist I&CI played a massive part in allowing them to overcome the far better equipped, financed and numerically superior nationalist forces. In addition, after they fled to Taiwan, the nationalists didn't give up for decades and kept sending in agents or trying to activate sleeper cells. But what major successes did Nationalist I&CI have on the mainland? Precious little and even today, you usually hear about Taiwanese generals being caught spying for China, often for years, but very rarely do you hear of Chinese officers of officials who were caught spying for Taiwan or other foreign powers.

You have allegations and revelations almost every year about people being caught selling secrets to the Chinese, usually having done so for years, yet western intelligence seems to be caught out every time the Chinese military bring out something new to the point where American leaders are pressing for 'transparency' at high level talks. You don't do that if your spies have a good grasp of what is going on on the ground already.

Westen intelligence relies a great deal on tech to get the job done because the high-borne that founded them thought that is what spying is about. Chinese I&CI was created in the crucible of war, occupation and civil war with little to no advanced tech support. Chinese spies relied on good old fashioned fieldcraft, skill and massive cahoonas to do their jobs and servive. Attrition rates were appalling, but those few who survived to help form the spy agencies of modern China only survived because they were truely exceptional at what they do.

There are downsides to being born out of such a culture and environment, as I think Chinese I&CI is sometimes cavalier about losses. They prefer to develop a lot of assets but not invest much in their training, development and well being because they know a lot of these assets will be lost. Giving them advance tech toys, more training on counter-counter-espionage techniques and giving them more support would obviously improve their odds of escaping detection, but it also runs the risk of greater exposure to Chinese I&CI if they are caught. That is why you hear about so many cases of people getting caught spying for China. Although that could just be because of the much greater number of Chinese assets in the field. Maybe the losses ratio is equiant to other agencies, maybe it's not. It's one of those things we will probably never know.

Kurt said:

Germany found out that China already had a very good counter-espionage effort during the

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, because it became impossible to hire Chinese security forces who knew the turf. These experiences dissuaded the colonial powers from too far incursions into China that could have resulted in an economic drain like the one enacted upon India. Seems like the Germans mostly left recipes for the

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and a very bad memory, including the infamous

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that was going to haunt us all over. All this could likely have been done without a shot fired, butgoing military was en vogue and the best chance for bitching great powers to do something together instead of the culminations of WWI and WWII that were to follow.
China was during one of their weakest hours acknowledged as a shrewd and capable enemy on the espionage frontline and the usual narrative understates the modernization of armed forces that was being worked out. Subsequent failures resulted in an organizational overhaul - the very pragmatic Chinese outlook is likely a result - that was accelerated by continuous enemy incursions, like the Japanese invasion. A lot of people died in China, like in the Soviet Union and other parts of the world. In China this shock served to achieve the current status of China by throwing much overboard, possibly too much, but the ship got going again. Many of the dead did fight with all available means for something and others were killed by the occupiers, a reason more to deny them the ability to implement their intentions.
Do you want to blame people that they know all about cowboys and indians and nothing about the old kingdom of Silla? It might be frustrating from a Chinese POV that your part in WWII seems forgotten, although the Chinese UN seat is a permanent reminder of recognition of this contribution. Japan and Germany, despite their decades of influence and wealth, still long for such a seat and all its implications and recognition. Honestly, if Pearl Harbour wasn't a film, who in Europe would know about it? Make a good film about Chinese WWII resistance for a contemporary Western audience and get rid of this perceived problem. The

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might be a good entrance to give a hand in mutual understanding (the old Soviets did multiple films of this kind).

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is a typical example of another one trying his hand at an Albanian alliance.
See the positive aspect, see China as the culmination hub of multiple traditional grids in various fields that was defended mostly intact and reclaims their economic power position now, plus advancing the military power projection capability and the global connections again.

So what's new about the fighter aircraft?

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Nothing new about it has been reported so far... except it's actually getting older by the day because it's been stressed out day in and day out since it went in that stress testing room.

^^^

I doubt that it was planned. But you are right in that stranger things have happend as an "excuse" to go to war ***cough *** Gulf of Tonkin ***cough**

Any one seen this photo yet???

^^^^ Post #776

Kurt said:

The US had been inciting Japan for a long time - American volunteer group in China. The US ambition was a Japanese declaration of war. They likely had some idea about Japanese concepts of striking first and telling the enemy later that they were at war, but ethnic prejudice, unimaginativeness and bureaucratic inertia, all typical for peacetime military institutions, certainly played their role. It was a gamble and hard to predict because striking Pearl Harbour could as well have been an early doom for the Japanese. Having large warships travelling in the water required prodigious amounts of fuel - officers worry a lot about logistics and availability of flight- or sea-hours of vehicles.
Not all "information" in war and peace is true and helpful, it's often cleverly falsified and misguiding. In the aftermath, everyone knows better, but under contemporary conditions it was usually very difficult to judge right. You can see the US decision from a POV of imperfect information as a decent performance.

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Let not get to technical here guys, Japan had invaded China, who was an important trade partner, the AVG {Flying Tigers}, were mercs hired to protect the Chinese, which they did, I doubt many in Japan had any idea they where even there until later, and when America joined the Chinese against the Japanese, the AVG was absorbed by the US forces. Now what does all this have to do with the price of tea in China? Back on topic gentlemen, this isn't political science, this is Sino D and we are discussing the F-60 and her rumored and recent entry into the fifth gen arena!

Air Force Brat said:

Let not get to technical here guys, Japan had invaded China, who was an important trade partner, the AVG {Flying Tigers}, were mercs hired to protect the Chinese, which they did, I doubt many in Japan had any idea they where even there until later, and when America joined the Chinese against the Japanese, the AVG was absorbed by the US forces. Now what does all this have to do with the price of tea in China? Back on topic gentlemen, this isn't political science, this is Sino D and we are discussing the F-60 and her rumored and recent entry into the fifth gen arena!

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Which fifth generation definition? Eurofighter and F22/F35 bicker a lot about details of classification, maybe Sukhoi wants to join.