Shenyang FC-31 / J-31 Fighter Demonstrator

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SUPARCO

Just Hatched
Registered Member
Hello,

What the "American intelligence agencies" can do is employ a couple of people from Sino Defence Forum, maybe that way it'll save them 4 weeks googling the internet frantically trying to "obtain new information on China’s second new stealth fighter-bomber."
 
Air Force Brat

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Player99 said:
Speaking of conspiracy, let's just say that it is a conspiracy on China's side. So why would China keep inciting the sentiment on the US's side that they should revive the F-22 program in addition to building lots more of F-35? Is China playing the trick that the US had played in bankrupting the USSR?

That aside, there're many Chinese who are of the belief that F-22, in additon to its being unltra expenive, has design problems so serious that the US can only afford to have the limited number of it just to keep the myth alive. But they were not even confident enough to deploy it on Lybia, which would be such a safe bet to demonstrate its shock and awe power.

Of course, also often and openly talked about on the Chinese forums is the belief that the US doesn't even need to use its superior military to overpower China, all it has to do it to drop a list of CCP high officials' relatives living in the USA or of the wealth stashed overseas by such offcials...

So what are we poor commoners to believe? How about that less than six month from now, the world is going to end? :p
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Assassin, thanks for posting the article, while much of it is conjecture, A.The F-60 did spend an "awfull lot of time riding around the country on the back of a semi trailer on a special rack. B.The F-60 does bear a striking resemblance to the F-22 if we trust the trust the drawings presented. CIf the Chineses Govt did not want you to see the F-60, we would not see the F-60. D the F-60 is nicely configured to operate off a carrier, both shape and size. E.The F-60 may be a static test aircraft, it is in no way a mature design and almost certainly has not had a first flight. So in retrospect it is far to early to panic or parade about in victory- depending on your perspective. So let me assure you that the lovely Raptor has no "fatal flaws", but believe what you like if it makes you feel better and that the lowly F-35 will be far more airplane than it has been given credit for, Yes I have and will criticize it, and no the Raptor is not perfect, nor is it likely to be returned to production, [in spite of the AFBs] desires, but it is very, very good, in fact better than the rest, it was crazy expensive 20 years ago, it is unlikely to be duplicated in this current economy, but has been worth every dime, you see when freedom is at stake, no expense is too great. The rest gentlemen is up to us!
 
Air Force Brat

Air Force Brat

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Super Moderator
plawolf said:
I actually love the opening sentence - "American intelligence agencies recently obtained new information on China’s second new stealth fighter-bomber revealed on the Internet in the past two years, according to U.S. officials."

Makes it almost sound like some CIA wizkid hacked into a top secret PLA server. Certainly make for more exciting reading than "some spook looked on a forum and used their Save Image As skillz to bring us these candid snaps".

This is so obviously a case of a cause looking for a soap box to stand on. The author wanted to lament the closing down of the F22 line and was looking for any excuse to bring it up. OMG, that plane looks like the F22! The Chinese must have stolen the design! We are doomed! Blah blah blah.

The fact that it would almost certainly be a far better fit for the F35 seemed to have escaped the attention of the geniuses that wrote that piece, or it didn't fit with the narrative they wanted to drive.

One also has to wonder where they are finding these former members of the 'intelligence community' who obviously have no idea what they are talking about.

Stealth fighters is so much more than an external shape. The internal structure also needs to be specifically designed and aligned to work in concert with the external shaping to achieve stealth. That is basic stuff that anyone can find out with a little reading on the internet. To omit that shows their 'expert' doesn't know the first thing about stealth designing.

I think even us amateurs here knows full well how ridiculous it is to suggest that someone could RE something just by looking at pictures. For Larry Wortzel to suggest it shows he doesn't know the first thing about basic design and manufacturing either.

What did he actually do when he worked for the 'intelligence community'? Make coffee?

What we are seeing with this and similar articles like it is a simple case of over-correction.

I am willing to guess that the author who wrote that piece was one of the many deniers who thought the J20 was all a hoax, and then a model, and then the world's most expensive taxi to finally accepting that it is real and here.

Having been 'fooled' the first time round, they are taking no chances and going into red alert hype mode when they saw the first images of the F60, and to people like them, there is no higher praise than to suggest that the F60 is a rip-off of the F22, because in their hearts of hearts, they still will not believe that the Chinese could come up with something like that independently. No no no, the only way they managed to make the J20 and F60 work is by copying off of American designs.

However, the Chinese were very inconsiderate in making the J20 so distinctive that not even the most deluded and uninformed reader would believe that it was a rip-off of the F22 or F35, so the author had to keep that idea to themselves when covering the J20, but it was looking for any sort of release. That is the only way anyone could suggest that the F60 is an F22 knock-off without having actually seen what it looks like first.
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Wolfie no one suggested the J-20 is a knock off of the F-22 except for the forward fuse, the F-60 is most definetly a knock off in about 5/6 scale. No need to get testy, and it doesn't concern me, as you have noted, there is far more to stealth aircraft than meets the eye. The Chinese obviously couldn't care less if someone accuses them of "borrowing", so why would you? As the very honest Dr. Song noted, the real strength of the Raptor is its awesome powerplant, and there is no doubt that Dr. Song was aiming to replicate and surpass the Raptor with the J-20, he chose the configuration he did in order to do so! I'm sure you've likely thought to yourself, that T-50 is a loose copy of the Raptor, right, lots of others have?
 
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paintgun

Senior Member
SUPARCO said:
Hello,

What the "American intelligence agencies" can do is employ a couple of people from Sino Defence Forum, maybe that way it'll save them 4 weeks googling the internet frantically trying to "obtain new information on China’s second new stealth fighter-bomber."
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lol

they just need to employ someone who speaks decent Mandarin Chinese

i don't believe that part at all
it's ridiculous to think the intelligence agencies does not have the resource, it is another bad writing by the author

well of course, "intelligence agencies" otherwise will make sense" :)

Air Force Brat said:
that T-50 is a loose copy of the Raptor, right, lots of others have?
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T-50 is even farther from the F-22 than the J-20, which itself is nothing like the F-22

the F-60? form follows function they say
 
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Hyperwarp

Hyperwarp

Captain
In terms of looks (Purely) :
J-21/F-60? look a lot more like a twin engined F-35 with F-22 like vertical tail to me.
J-20? Canopy and nose are certainly F-22 (ish), but the J-20 is a mix of whole load of things. That gives it a unique appearance.
T-50? Mainly looks like Su-27 + YF-23, but does look F-22 (ish) from the bottom.
 
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kwaigonegin

kwaigonegin

Colonel
you know what's really funny? I'm beginning to think that the CIA needs to hire all of us as defense analysts because we sure as hell know more about many of these events and even the 'guesstimation' of some of the technical specifications of certain equipment than they do. It seems like a lot of things that we say and discussed in this forum is somehow mined and regurgitated by some 'American defense expert' in some form of media a couple days later!

Sad part is we do it for free but these SOB's are milking the gubment $$$ to write some lame articles.

/Serious
 
Hyperwarp

Hyperwarp

Captain
kwaigonegin said:
you know what's really funny? I'm beginning to think that the CIA needs to hire all of us as defense analysts because we sure as hell know more about many of these events and even the 'guesstimation' of some of the technical specifications of certain equipment than they do. It seems like a lot of things that we say and discussed in this forum is somehow mined and regurgitated by some 'American defense expert' in some form of media a couple days later!

Sad part is we do it for free but these SOB's are milking the gubment $$$ to write some lame articles.

/Serious
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Thats rather harsh. CIA, NSA and other intelligent gathering agencies release only the info that they are cleared to release. They likely have agents within CAC, SAC etc. Remember their main weapon is secrecy.
 
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Player99

Junior Member
I have for long lost hopes for the majority of the media and of the jounalists in this world. Those in democratic societies are no better (not a bit) than their counterpart elsewhere... They are mostly rednecks in suit and tie, i.e., professional rednecks, very ignorat about most things.
 
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Player99

Junior Member
kwaigonegin said:
you know what's really funny? I'm beginning to think that the CIA needs to hire all of us as defense analysts because we sure as hell know more about many of these events and even the 'guesstimation' of some of the technical specifications of certain equipment than they do. It seems like a lot of things that we say and discussed in this forum is somehow mined and regurgitated by some 'American defense expert' in some form of media a couple days later!

Sad part is we do it for free but these SOB's are milking the gubment $$$ to write some lame articles.

/Serious
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Don't be sad and don't despair. nothing in this world happens or exists for no reasons. SOB's exist and get well paid for the same reasons we non-SOB's do and not get paid, just for this reality to evolve or devovle the way it should. :p
 
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Vini_Vidi_Vici

Junior Member
Those agencies obviously know more than we do. They actually have people physically working on the field acquiring first hand information, not like us, only hearing second even third hand ones. On top of that, they have access to other highly classified information that indirectly relate to these events. Don't forget they're also highly trained specialists, they see things differently than we do.

US government is not stupid, they won't waste tens even hundreds of billions on something useless. The Cold War proved their efficiency and usefulness.
 
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