Shenyang FC-31 / J-31 Fighter Demonstrator

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FangYuan

Junior Member
Registered Member
well, he stated that in order to have 1000 J-XY/XZ by 2035, China will built 10 CATOBAR carriers... I just don't know where to start...

10 carriers, 1000 J-XY ... OMG. It is the bottomless pit.

Life cycle costs (30-50 years) include: Production, maintenance, fuel, logistics, spare parts, engineers and workers, can be up to several trillion USD.

It brings short-term benefits (for 30-50 years), but will weaken China in the long term.
 
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latenlazy

Brigadier
you do know china is on the 'MAINLAND' of east asia, and has far more bases and airfields than all the US and its east asia alliens combined.... also most of these countries by theirselves don't have the ability/weapon to reach china, but china does has a large arsanal to get them


really? I don't think so, you do remember China is a major nuclear power right? what makes you think if the time when China need to develop carriers to attack these countries or US military in these countries, US won't strike back with nuclear? US was even threating to go nukes to China on potential loss of a carrier.

and when US started a nuclear war, what makes you think china will chicken?

let me put this way, the scenario that China use carrier within 1st island chain does not even exist, even campion on Taiwan, China is most likely to place its carrier fleet on the EAST side of Taiwan and north to philipine, technically outside the 1st island chain

Having airbases on the mainland does not give you effective air and sea control 1000 miles out from China’s coast. But 1000 miles out from China’s coast is how the US plans to dictate its engagement scenarios. The 1st and 2nd island chains are key staging areas for US force projection. If you don’t effectively wrest area control from the US along at least the 1st island chain that means the US always has a place to recuperate any attrition it might incur during a conventional conflict with China. Furthermore, if the US chooses to impose a blockade against China (this is a very prominent scenario covered by Pentagon strategic planning), China has no way of contesting US forces at vital choke points that far out from its mainland if it does not have the ability to project air power out to at least the 1st island chain.

If being a nuclear power meant that China was safe from conventional military conflict scenarios and any attempt at countering a conventional scenario meant nuclear escalation on both sides why even bother developing the navy in the first place? Why even bother with A2AD? Why not just threaten to nuke the US if they choose to come anywhere close to the Chinese coast? The answer is because outside of direct invasion of either country’s main territory or existential war the nuclear option is not actually on the table. For one, it’s not even clear the extent to which the US’s nuclear umbrella is active with countries it has bases in outside of Japan and Korea. But more importantly China isn’t going to attack another country sheltering US bases unless those bases are used to attack China, creating a justified retaliation scenario. US controlled bases in other countries are themselves typically considered US soil, but bases owned by other countries that are not US controlled which provide operational support for the US essentially signal collaboration with the US, which under standard laws of engagement make them fair targets for limited strikes. Those kinds of situations are not sufficient triggers for a nuclear deterrence because they don’t involve the intent to take over or destroy a whole country. There are actual international laws and norms that create some scaffolding for the rules and norms for nuclear escalation, and nuclear powers follow them because they create paths for predictable conduct and behavior that help prevent nuclear countries from actually ending the world in a nuclear hellfire. China conventionally attacking a US base that’s being used to conventionally attack them does not qualify under nuclear escalation scenarios.

A war over Taiwan may not stay contained to Taiwan, especially if the US chooses to pursue the blockade scenario. But even if it does not, to prevent the USN from attacking Chinese assets engaged in an invasion of Taiwan China would have to prevent US entry into the theater via the southern face of the 1st island chain, which A2AD by itself doesn’t guarantee prevention of. Having forward projected carrier groups
to force an ingressing USN to deplete their fighting strength before they reach the Taiwan theater helps the likelihood for China’s ability to resist US involvement in a fight over an invasion of Taiwan significantly. So the idea that China should only have to worry about deploying carriers on Taiwan’s eastern coast is imo an overly simplistic and shortsighted way to understand all the different strategic contingencies China would need to cover even for an invasion for Taiwan.
 
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stannislas

Junior Member
Registered Member
China is the world's largest trading nation and the vast majority of its trade is seaborne. China relies on the sea for imports of raw materials whilst exporting manufactured goods. At the same time, we can expect China to become the world's largest overseas investor. Historically the world's largest trading nation ends up building the biggest Navy in order to secure its global trading interests and defend a liberal trading and investment environment, which is in the overall interests of the world.

At the moment, the US Navy has uncontested sea control of the global maritime commons beyond the 2nd Island Chain which means it can blockade China's trade. The US military can also reach places within the 1st Island Chain like Taiwan.

But if China builds a Navy which is equal to or more powerful than the US Navy, it can credibly protect its overseas trade and potentially cut off the Western Pacific from the USA. This will deter/prevent the US military from intervening in Taiwan or going to war with China.

That is a logical rationale for 10 carriers.
just because US did something, does not means China need to do the same, otherwise China won't do:
DF-17/21/26/etc.
belt and road initiative
asia-euro train
...

China has state multiple times it has no interest to compete with US in the role of 'international police', so china won't do exactly what US does just to match its influnce, there is more than one way in the eye of China.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
haha, so US hasn't found Chinese missile difficult to deal with? what about those anti A2/AD stretegy US cocking up these years?

if US long range capacity is reliable why it keep saying chinese hypersonic missile is ahead of US in 5-10 years? what's the purpose of rapid raptor? why USM dump all the M1 and porpose some silly quick island missle depoyment non sense?

also enlighten me? what hypersonic missiles from 3000km US have??? does US even has a hypersonic missle at the moment? I mean about 5 mach and above.

Yes, the US has multiple hypersonic weapons programmes under development.
Some are now in production, but as you can imagine, missiles with a range of 3000km are expensive.
So you need a mix of lower-cost capabilities as well.

stripes.com/theaters/us/2021-11-12/hypersonic-weapons-budget-106-million-each-pentagon-3596860.html

Missiles are typically used for the initial stages of any battle/campaign, then lower-cost munitions become an option.
 

stannislas

Junior Member
Registered Member
Having airbases on the mainland does not give you effective air and sea control 1000 miles out from China’s coast. But 1000 miles out from China’s coast is how the US plans to dictate its engagement scenarios. The 1st and 2nd island chains are key staging areas for US force projection. If you don’t effectively wrest area control from the US along at least the 1st island chain that means the US always has a place to recuperate any attrition it might incur during a conventional conflict with China. Furthermore, if the US chooses to impose a blockade against China (this is a very prominent scenario covered by Pentagon strategic planning), China has no way of contesting US forces at vital choke points that far out from its mainland if it does not have the ability to project air power out to at least the 1st island chain.
so here, US and its alian base, useful, choke point to china, Chinese base, no effective air and sea control 1000 miles..
oh, wait, when did 1000 miles 1st island chain???

If being a nuclear power meant that China was safe from conventional military conflict scenarios and any attempt at countering a conventional scenario meant nuclear escalation on both sides why even bother developing the navy in the first place? Why even bother with A2AD? Why not just threaten to nuke the US if they choose to come anywhere close to the Chinese coast? The answer is because outside of direct invasion of either country’s main territory or existential war the nuclear option is not actually on the table. For one, it’s not even clear the extent to which the US’s nuclear umbrella is active with countries it has bases in outside of Japan and Korea. But more importantly China isn’t going to attack another country sheltering US bases unless those bases are used to attack China, creating a justified retaliation scenario. US controlled bases in other countries are themselves typically considered US soil, but bases owned by countries that are not US controlled which provide operational support for the US essentially signal collaboration with the US, which under standard laws of engagement make them fair targets for limited strikes. Those kinds of situations are not sufficient triggers for a nuclear deterrence because they don’t involve the intent to take over or destroy a whole country. There are actual international laws and norms that create some scaffolding for the rules and norms for nuclear escalation, and nuclear powers follow them because they create paths for predictable conduct and behavior that help prevent nuclear countries from actually ending the world in a nuclear hellfire. China conventionally attacking a US base that’s being used to conventionally attack them does not qualify under nuclear escalation scenarios.
ok again, are you serious? since when I said a nuclear power meant China was safe, I said there won't be convential war if china decide to use its carrier to attack US and its alian, by then carrier won't matter anyway...

A war over Taiwan may not stay contained to Taiwan, especially if the US chooses to pursue the blockade scenario. But even if it does not, to prevent the USN from attacking Chinese assets engaged in an invasion of Taiwan China would have to prevent US entry into the theater via the southern face of the 1st island chain, which A2AD by itself doesn’t guarantee prevention of. Having forward projected carrier groups
to force an ingressing USN to deplete their fighting strength before they reach the Taiwan theater helps the likelihood for China’s ability to resist US involvement in a fight over a Taiwan significantly. So the idea that China should only have to worry about deploying carriers on Taiwan’s eastern coast is imo an overly simplistic and shortsighted way to understand all the different strategic contingencies China would need to cover even for an invasion for Taiwan.
you do release what you said contridicted to what happened in the world right? on the one side US is moving its troop to guam in order to avoid Chinese missle strike, on the other side you suggest China need 10 extra carrier to do so???
 

stannislas

Junior Member
Registered Member
Yes, the US has multiple hypersonic weapons programmes under development.
Some are now in production, but as you can imagine, missiles with a range of 3000km are expensive.
So you need a mix of lower-cost capabilities as well.

stripes.com/theaters/us/2021-11-12/hypersonic-weapons-budget-106-million-each-pentagon-3596860.html

Missiles are typically used for the initial stages of any battle/campaign, then lower-cost munitions become an option.
may I remind you what 'under development' means, oh, just recent news, US ARMY failed the test again...

so you do release you are the person try to argue that China need to develop 10 carrier to defend 1st island chain right? and I'm saying China has airforce and rocket force to help so it doesn't...
so essentially you called 10 carrier fleets a 'a mix of lower-cost capabilities'????? ha... there must be one of us have some difficuties in understanding the pharse of 'lower-cost'
 
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AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
may I remind you what 'under development' means, oh, just recent news, US ARMY failed the test again...

so you do release you are the person try to argue that China need to develop 10 carrier to defend 1st island chain right? and I'm saying China has airforce and rocket force to help so it doesn't...
so essentially you called 10 carrier fleets a 'a mix of lower-cost capabilities'????? ha... there must be one of us have some difficuties in understanding the pharse of 'lower-cost'

Best to assume that the US will solve the issues with their hypersonic missiles, given the amount of money they are throwing at this.

Carriers are the only practical (low-cost) option for sea control past 3000km. If you try to use missiles or long-range aircraft, the cost becomes even larger
 

stannislas

Junior Member
Registered Member
Best to assume that the US will solve the issues with their hypersonic missiles, given the amount of money they are throwing at this.
this is funny, China is ahead of US in high-speed missile for like ten years, and its the US who will solved the issue with their hypersonic missile... ok if you say so....whatever you like to say...

Carriers are the only practical (low-cost) option for sea control past 3000km. If you try to use missiles or long-range aircraft, the cost becomes even larger
intersting, so first island chain extened to 3000km... ok... emmm....

also, DF-26 is able to reach Guam, so you think DF-26 is more costly than 10 carrier fleets...... interesting

I have to say, it's amazing how much china can achieve with its 1.7% of GDP...
 
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