Shenyang FC-31 / J-31 Fighter Demonstrator

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Blitzo

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That's odd, since the F-35 has a combat radius (unrefueled) of 615 nautical miles for the "C" variant. I'd also argue that its air-to-air sensor capability exceeds that of the F-22 with its larger AESA radar, newer transceivers and software, and overall situational awareness augmented by its EODAS.

The issue isn't so much the avionics side of the equation where F-35 is deficient based on the CSBA's thinking, but rather range/payload/kinematics I think.


The main advantages of the J-20 would be its greater payload (we do not know if it's capable of carrying A2G weaponry) and endurance. The FC-31 has a clear edge in terms of size & weight (and possibly operating costs), allowing China's smaller carriers to retain some tactical flexibility by carrying more aircraft onboard, the value of which I would argue might even offset the J-20's ~800 range advantage.

Perhaps, but we do not really know how many more naval J-20s could be stored on a carrier vs naval FC-31s, nor do we know what the Navy's assessment of that value of J-20's greater range/payloads vs FC-31's likely greater number that could be placed on a carrier.

It may well be that the call between greater range/payload vs greater number is a close one, but in the end the Navy has to make a decision and if they chose J-20 over FC-31 I imagine valuing greater range/payload over a greater number of aircraft would've been a part of their thinking, among many other potential factors of J-20 vs FC-31.
 

SinoSoldier

Colonel
The issue isn't so much the avionics side of the equation where F-35 is deficient based on the CSBA's thinking, but rather range/payload/kinematics I think.

But clearly the F-35 has advantages (compared to the notional 500nm-range aircraft illustrated by CSBA) in range, and its air-to-air sensor capabilities (exact words taken from the CSBA op-ed) are at least equal to that of the F-22. The only advantage the F-22 (I'm using the F-22 as the counterpart to the J-20) holds would be air-to-air agility & payload. Note that kinematics isn't exactly a selling point of the J-20 and will not be until the WS-15 enters service circa 2024. The payload advantage is also dubious in merit since the J-20 has not yet demonstrated or purported to be able to launch heavy air-to-surface weaponry.

Perhaps, but we do not really know how many more naval J-20s could be stored on a carrier vs naval FC-31s, nor do we know what the Navy's assessment of that value of J-20's greater range/payloads vs FC-31's likely greater number that could be placed on a carrier.

But we do know that, whatever the discrepancy is, a carrier would carry more FC-31s than it would J-20s. That may not be an issue for a navy with 10 (soon to be 12) Nimitz-sized carriers, but for the PLAN that has yet to induct its second 60K-ton vessel, a distinction must be made.

It may well be that the call between greater range/payload vs greater number is a close one, but in the end the Navy has to make a decision and if they chose J-20 over FC-31 I imagine valuing greater range/payload over a greater number of aircraft would've been a part of their thinking, among many other potential factors of J-20 vs FC-31.

I'm not against a mixed fleet of J-20/FC-31, but I have to say that staying with Flanker-sized aircraft on a Varyag-sized vessel is anachronistic. I think the only plausible rationale for stationing J-20s on a carrier was if the FC-31 itself failed to pass acceptance tests or had a serious, irreparable defect.
 

Iron Man

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But clearly the F-35 has advantages (compared to the notional 500nm-range aircraft illustrated by CSBA) in range, and its air-to-air sensor capabilities (exact words taken from the CSBA op-ed) are at least equal to that of the F-22. The only advantage the F-22 (I'm using the F-22 as the counterpart to the J-20) holds would be air-to-air agility & payload. Note that kinematics isn't exactly a selling point of the J-20 and will not be until the WS-15 enters service circa 2024. The payload advantage is also dubious in merit since the J-20 has not yet demonstrated or purported to be able to launch heavy air-to-surface weaponry.
Realistically we should remove from our minds any notion that the J-20 will carry antiship missiles in any but the most extreme of circumstances. It's just not going to happen. Any air-to-surface or air-to-ground role taken up by the J-20 would almost certainly involve nothing more than a pair of 500kg laser-guided or Compass-guided bombs tucked inside its weapons bay, probably along with a pair of PL-15s. The only way the J-20 will be able to carry a normally-sized antiship missile is via external pylons, which would immediately neutralize its stealth capability and render it no better than a 4th generation strike/attack fighter. Money wasted right there.

But we do know that, whatever the discrepancy is, a carrier would carry more FC-31s than it would J-20s. That may not be an issue for a navy with 10 (soon to be 12) Nimitz-sized carriers, but for the PLAN that has yet to induct its second 60K-ton vessel, a distinction must be made.
It may be able to carry more J-31s than J-15s, but how many more? Are these extra fighters worth the penalty in range and payload? This is not a straightforward proposition.

I'm not against a mixed fleet of J-20/FC-31, but I have to say that staying with Flanker-sized aircraft on a Varyag-sized vessel is anachronistic. I think the only plausible rationale for stationing J-20s on a carrier was if the FC-31 itself failed to pass acceptance tests or had a serious, irreparable defect.
Or numerous other reasons that we know and don't know about.
 

Blitzo

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But clearly the F-35 has advantages (compared to the notional 500nm-range aircraft illustrated by CSBA) in range, and its air-to-air sensor capabilities (exact words taken from the CSBA op-ed) are at least equal to that of the F-22. The only advantage the F-22 (I'm using the F-22 as the counterpart to the J-20) holds would be air-to-air agility & payload. Note that kinematics isn't exactly a selling point of the J-20 and will not be until the WS-15 enters service circa 2024. The payload advantage is also dubious in merit since the J-20 has not yet demonstrated or purported to be able to launch heavy air-to-surface weaponry.

Tbh I think the CSBA study isn't even considering a naval F-22, but probably something more like a naval J-20 with contemporary sensor capabilities, in terms of how they describe it.

As for J-20 vs FC-31 regarding J-20's range and kinematics etc... err sure, but FC-31 hasn't exactly demonstrated an ability to launch heavy A2G weaponry from internal bays which have a similar configuration to J-20's internal bays, and it too will also remain relatively underpowered with whatever WS-13 variant they are supposedly using until a new generation medium thrust engine is ready which will likely be quite a bit after WS-15 is.



But we do know that, whatever the discrepancy is, a carrier would carry more FC-31s than it would J-20s. That may not be an issue for a navy with 10 (soon to be 12) Nimitz-sized carriers, but for the PLAN that has yet to induct its second 60K-ton vessel, a distinction must be made.

You sort of made my own argument for me here. I'll expand on this below.



I'm not against a mixed fleet of J-20/FC-31, but I have to say that staying with Flanker-sized aircraft on a Varyag-sized vessel is anachronistic. I think the only plausible rationale for stationing J-20s on a carrier was if the FC-31 itself failed to pass acceptance tests or had a serious, irreparable defect.

A good question you should ask is how long do you think the Navy will continue with Varyag sized vessels.

Liaoning and 001A are likely to be the only 65k ton carriers the Navy will have, and going forwards they will probably only be 85k and eventually 100k ton carriers. The Navy's 5th generation fighter should not be developed for carriers that the Navy currently has or will have in the immediate future, but rather for the bulk of what their carrier fleet will look like in the longer term future. Considering that, I wouldn't be surprised if the Navy is willing to play a bit higher with the size of the future fighter they are looking to induct.

And I don't think even operating Flanker sized aircraft on Liaoning and 001A are necessarily anachronistic either, to be honest. Again, it asks the issue of range/endurance vs number.
 

SinoSoldier

Colonel
Tbh I think the CSBA study isn't even considering a naval F-22, but probably something more like a naval J-20 with contemporary sensor capabilities, in terms of how they describe it.

As for J-20 vs FC-31 regarding J-20's range and kinematics etc... err sure, but FC-31 hasn't exactly demonstrated an ability to launch heavy A2G weaponry from internal bays which have a similar configuration to J-20's internal bays, and it too will also remain relatively underpowered with whatever WS-13 variant they are supposedly using until a new generation medium thrust engine is ready which will likely be quite a bit after WS-15 is.

I'm pointing out that the supposed "criteria" for CSBA's ideal fighter is actually reminiscent of the F-35 in more ways than one, with the exception of supermaneuverability. The F-35C meets CSBA's combat radius criteria (exceeds it quite a margin actually) and has potent BVR capability to boot.

At this point, the only advantage the J-20 would bring to the equation would be raw range (GlobalSecurity estimates a 2000 km radius for the J-20 as opposed to the FC-31's 1250 km).

The FC-31 can carry air-to-surface weaponry in the form of four 500 kg bombs or 4 supersonic ASMs, all carried internally, as confirmed at the 2016 Zhuhai Airshow.

A good question you should ask is how long do you think the Navy will continue with Varyag sized vessels.

Liaoning and 001A are likely to be the only 65k ton carriers the Navy will have, and going forwards they will probably only be 85k and eventually 100k ton carriers. The Navy's 5th generation fighter should not be developed for carriers that the Navy currently has or will have in the immediate future, but rather for the bulk of what their carrier fleet will look like in the longer term future. Considering that, I wouldn't be surprised if the Navy is willing to play a bit higher with the size of the future fighter they are looking to induct.

And I don't think even operating Flanker sized aircraft on Liaoning and 001A are necessarily anachronistic either, to be honest. Again, it asks the issue of range/endurance vs number.

Considering that the 100K ton carriers won't likely be ready until well into the 2030s, the PLAN would need a 5th generation platform that could equip its vessels in the meantime. And then you have other factors working against the J-20's favor, such as flyaway cost and servicing cost.
 

Blitzo

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I'm pointing out that the supposed "criteria" for CSBA's ideal fighter is actually reminiscent of the F-35 in more ways than one, with the exception of supermaneuverability. The F-35C meets CSBA's combat radius criteria (exceeds it quite a margin actually) and has potent BVR capability to boot.

I think the CSBA's air to air fighter isn't described in that great of detail beyond talking about emphasizing kinematics, air to air function/air to air sensors and its 500+ nmi range. F-35C could definitely fit that bill but I imagine they're talking about a substantially larger fighter that is able to operate at a similar combat radius to the F-35C but with higher kinematic capability and potentially a greater payload and endurance as well.

However I'll concede that this is too vague to discuss in more detail, but I rest my case saying that there is a valid argument that the USN may be interested in a bigger and more air superiority oriented fighter than what the F-35C offers.


At this point, the only advantage the J-20 would bring to the equation would be raw range (GlobalSecurity estimates a 2000 km radius for the J-20 as opposed to the FC-31's 1250 km).

I'd argue there are quite a few other potential advantages.
Greater maturity/lower risk and likely earlier deliver than naval FC-31, greater commonality with the air force, potentially greater payload (considering J-20's ventral bay is at least as big as FC-31s and it has the benefits of side SRAAM bays too -- but we don't know whether naval J-20 and naval FC-31 offers came with enlarged weapon bays or not... however even then I think it would be a surprise to all of us if the smaller naval FC-31 ended up with a larger payload bay than the larger naval J-20), larger sensor size... among others.


The FC-31 can carry air-to-surface weaponry in the form of four 500 kg bombs or 4 supersonic ASMs, all carried internally, as confirmed at the 2016 Zhuhai Airshow.

Considering FC-31's size/volume and the configuration of its weapons bays, I would be quite surprised if you are trying to argue that any weapons that FC-31 can carry internally are ones which J-20 would not also be able to carry.


Considering that the 100K ton carriers won't likely be ready until well into the 2030s, the PLAN would need a 5th generation platform that could equip its vessels in the meantime. And then you have other factors working against the J-20's favor, such as flyaway cost and servicing cost.

Well into the 2030s? Maybe, but not necessarily. I wouldn't be surprised if the first of the 100k ton carriers enters service in the late 2020s. Not to mention the 85k ton carriers would be able to handle J-20 sized aircraft more than comfortably too.

And sure, flyaway cost and servicing cost would be higher for J-20, but J-20 also has lower risk/earlier delivery than FC-31 as there have been many more J-20s flying than FC-31s with far more testing, not to mention it would likely offer a degree of commonality with the air force.


But I think we are getting too much into the nitty gritty of this -- the bottom line of my argument is that I think it is perfectly reasonable for the navy to have chosen J-20 as their future naval fighter if that is indeed their decision. It was probably a close contest, and we've both shown that there are arguments for and against both options, but at the end of the day I think it is sensible to say that both were reasonable options and it was probably either one's competition to win (if a decision has indeed been made).


You seem to be trying to argue that it is very unreasonable for the Navy to have potentially chosen the J-20 as the basis of its naval fighter, (and that FC-31 was the only logical option in your view) am I correct? If that is so, then I think we can both see that that is a much more difficult position to argue for and to defend than mine.
 

kwaigonegin

Colonel
Unlike the USN, PLAN is evolving from a standpoint of naval aviation.
We all know with near certainty what the future makeup of carriers will be for the USN, that is the Ford class will be replacing the Nimitz class for the next 50 years, likely longer. Certainly longer than many here today will still be alive.

Same goes with naval aviation.,majority of USN carrier strike fighters will be F35s in the forseeable future. They will be pairing with the superbugs for a very long time to come.... FA XX is at least 15-20 years away from LRIP and to make any predictions at this point is just fool's errant. The only prediction I dare to even make is I think it will be larger than the F35!

It is also quite likely that the next generation of fighters (6th) may also be the last manned ones. 7th Gen could very well be drones.. Either fully autonomous AI or remotely piloted.

PLAN however is still up in the air , no pun intended, compared to the USN. I think most of us here would agree that the Liaoning hull is relatively temporary. It's quite likely that PLAN will field a Ford size type CVN in the next 20 years and continue building them for many more decades afterward.

It's presumptiious to think they will be handicapped with 65-70k ton boats forever. Everything we know thus far is they plan on building bigger supercarriers for the future. A navalized J20 or some other big birdie can operate efficiently in a 100k ton carrier. By then PLAN may decide to decomm Liaoning or sell her to another nation which may potentially make Shandong the ONLY carrier under 75k tons.
 

SinoSoldier

Colonel
I think the CSBA's air to air fighter isn't described in that great of detail beyond talking about emphasizing kinematics, air to air function/air to air sensors and its 500+ nmi range. F-35C could definitely fit that bill but I imagine they're talking about a substantially larger fighter that is able to operate at a similar combat radius to the F-35C but with higher kinematic capability and potentially a greater payload and endurance as well.

However I'll concede that this is too vague to discuss in more detail, but I rest my case saying that there is a valid argument that the USN may be interested in a bigger and more air superiority oriented fighter than what the F-35C offers.

Whatever the details are, it's important to keep in mind that the CSBA is merely a nonpartisan think tank, much alike RAND, and does not necessarily represent strategic discourse within US Navy.

I'd argue there are quite a few other potential advantages.
Greater maturity/lower risk and likely earlier deliver than naval FC-31, greater commonality with the air force, potentially greater payload (considering J-20's ventral bay is at least as big as FC-31s and it has the benefits of side SRAAM bays too -- but we don't know whether naval J-20 and naval FC-31 offers came with enlarged weapon bays or not... however even then I think it would be a surprise to all of us if the smaller naval FC-31 ended up with a larger payload bay than the larger naval J-20), larger sensor size... among others.

I wouldn't credit the J-20 with more "maturity", given that the naval variants of the J-20 & FC-31 have not yet been developed and would require modifications to its subsystems and airframe. I'm also confused as to what you mean by "greater commonality" -- the FC-31 would surely be fully integrated into the PLAAF's C4ISR network if it were to be adopted.

Considering FC-31's size/volume and the configuration of its weapons bays, I would be quite surprised if you are trying to argue that any weapons that FC-31 can carry internally are ones which J-20 would not also be able to carry.

The fact of the matter is that the J-20 has only been seen with PL-10, PL-15 (or PL-12G as Huitong calls it), PL-12, and nothing else, whereas the FC-31 has been heavily marketed as a multirole aircraft capable of carrying heavy air-to-surface munitions. I'm not discounting the prospect of the J-20 obtaining some A2G capability, but it's unconfirmed at best.

Well into the 2030s? Maybe, but not necessarily. I wouldn't be surprised if the first of the 100k ton carriers enters service in the late 2020s. Not to mention the 85k ton carriers would be able to handle J-20 sized aircraft more than comfortably too.

And sure, flyaway cost and servicing cost would be higher for J-20, but J-20 also has lower risk/earlier delivery than FC-31 as there have been many more J-20s flying than FC-31s with far more testing, not to mention it would likely offer a degree of commonality with the air force.

Even if the PLAN does receive one 85K & 100K carrier by 2030, the PLAN would still need to maximize the # of carrier fighters in light of the US Navy's 10-carrier fleet.

But I think we are getting too much into the nitty gritty of this -- the bottom line of my argument is that I think it is perfectly reasonable for the navy to have chosen J-20 as their future naval fighter if that is indeed their decision. It was probably a close contest, and we've both shown that there are arguments for and against both options, but at the end of the day I think it is sensible to say that both were reasonable options and it was probably either one's competition to win (if a decision has indeed been made).

You seem to be trying to argue that it is very unreasonable for the Navy to have potentially chosen the J-20 as the basis of its naval fighter, (and that FC-31 was the only logical option in your view) am I correct? If that is so, then I think we can both see that that is a much more difficult position to argue for and to defend than mine.

I'm not insinuating that such decisions were "unreasonable" (to assess such things is the job of the military brass), but rather perplexed at the PLAN's alleged decision to use heavyweight fighters when other professional & time-tested navies are going in the opposite direction.
 

Blitzo

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Whatever the details are, it's important to keep in mind that the CSBA is merely a nonpartisan think tank, much alike RAND, and does not necessarily represent strategic discourse within US Navy.

No disagreement there necessarily, but the purpose of this is to illustrate that assuming many navies are all choosing medium weight fighters for their carriers as if it is some sort of "best fit category" may not be a correct view in the long term.


I wouldn't credit the J-20 with more "maturity", given that the naval variants of the J-20 & FC-31 have not yet been developed and would require modifications to its subsystems and airframe. I'm also confused as to what you mean by "greater commonality" -- the FC-31 would surely be fully integrated into the PLAAF's C4ISR network if it were to be adopted.

I would credit a naval J-20 with more maturity relative compared to the naval FC-31. No doubt both J-20 and FC-31 would require modifications relative to the existing airframes that they have to be navalized and fulfill whatever requirements the Navy may have for them, but considering the J-20 has had the benefits of many more airframes flying over the years and the benefit of Air Force funded testing and trials for its full range of subsystems that the Air Force is adopting vs whatever testing SAC has managed to get from its two flying airframes.... well yes in that case I would consider a navalized J-20 mod to be starting off from a more mature position than a navalized FC-31 mod.


And as for FC-31 commonality -- well, that's assuming the Air Force commits to the FC-31.


The fact of the matter is that the J-20 has only been seen with PL-10, PL-15 (or PL-12G as Huitong calls it), PL-12, and nothing else, whereas the FC-31 has been heavily marketed as a multirole aircraft capable of carrying heavy air-to-surface munitions. I'm not discounting the prospect of the J-20 obtaining some A2G capability, but it's unconfirmed at best.

I feel like this is a very weak argument suggesting that J-20 would not have the capability to field A2G weapons internally, especially when we are talking about a notional naval J-20 vs a notional naval FC-31.


Even if the PLAN does receive one 85K & 100K carrier by 2030, the PLAN would still need to maximize the # of carrier fighters in light of the US Navy's 10-carrier fleet.

Let's not be so black and white about this -- yes they would have a target number of fighters they would like to be able to field, but that would also depend on the qualitative capabilities of the fighters themselves.


I'm not insinuating that such decisions were "unreasonable" (to assess such things is the job of the military brass), but rather perplexed at the PLAN's alleged decision to use heavyweight fighters when other professional & time-tested navies are going in the opposite direction.

The fact that you're perplexed I think would directly insinuate that you believe such a decision would be unreasonable.
 

Iron Man

Major
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Unlike the USN, PLAN is evolving from a standpoint of naval aviation.
We all know with near certainty what the future makeup of carriers will be for the USN, that is the Ford class will be replacing the Nimitz class for the next 50 years, likely longer. Certainly longer than many here today will still be alive.

Same goes with naval aviation.,majority of USN carrier strike fighters will be F35s in the forseeable future. They will be pairing with the superbugs for a very long time to come.... FA XX is at least 15-20 years away from LRIP and to make any predictions at this point is just fool's errant. The only prediction I dare to even make is I think it will be larger than the F35!

It is also quite likely that the next generation of fighters (6th) may also be the last manned ones. 7th Gen could very well be drones.. Either fully autonomous AI or remotely piloted.

PLAN however is still up in the air , no pun intended, compared to the USN. I think most of us here would agree that the Liaoning hull is relatively temporary. It's quite likely that PLAN will field a Ford size type CVN in the next 20 years and continue building them for many more decades afterward.

It's presumptiious to think they will be handicapped with 65-70k ton boats forever. Everything we know thus far is they plan on building bigger supercarriers for the future. A navalized J20 or some other big birdie can operate efficiently in a 100k ton carrier. By then PLAN may decide to decomm Liaoning or sell her to another nation which may potentially make Shandong the ONLY carrier under 75k tons.
Interesting that there has been more and more talk recently about the USN downsizing its carrier fleet to ships the size of the QE or putting ski ramps onto LHAs. A Liaoning-sized carrier is only "handicapped" compared to a Nimitz or a Ford carrier. It currently happens to be larger than any carrier in operation other than the Nimitz class and its sister ship the Kuznetsov. Although I personally think a more optimum size would be an 80-85kt CVN like a PLAN nuclear Kitty Hawk, which BTW routinely carried 70-80 aircraft on missions, so in terms of numbers of aircraft carried it would be no slouch compared to a Nimitz. And unlike the actual Kitty Hawk a PLAN CVN of that size would have the advantage of not needing to store fuel for the carrier itself freeing up room for more jet fuel and munitions.

The fact of the matter is that the J-20 has only been seen with PL-10, PL-15 (or PL-12G as Huitong calls it), PL-12, and nothing else, whereas the FC-31 has been heavily marketed as a multirole aircraft capable of carrying heavy air-to-surface munitions. I'm not discounting the prospect of the J-20 obtaining some A2G capability, but it's unconfirmed at best.
This is just flat out wrong. The FC-31 will not be carrying any "heavy" air-to-surface munitions of any kind unless they are slung externally. If they could carry small antiship missiles the size of the C-704KD internally that would already be an accomplishment. You should review the lengths of standard antiship missiles like the YJ-83 and then ask yourself in how the world they could possibly fit into any fighter's weapons bay.
 
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