Shenyang FC-31 / J-31 Fighter Demonstrator

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rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
Aviation experts.

5th generation platforms are defined by 5S doctrine.

* Stealth
* Supermaneuverability
* Supercruise
* Sensor fusion
* Survivability

Actually, from what I have read and in my opinion, the most defining characteristic of the fifth generation aircraft was as follows,

1) All Aspect Stealth (the definition of this aspect was however different for all nations) even when armed - which might mean internal weapon bays.
2) Advance avionic features (upgrade from forth generation fighters), and again this is different for all countries, because of the different era and standard of development.
3) Low Probability of Intercept Radar (this work together with the all aspect stealth, one is exterior and one is radar)
4) highly integrated computer systems capable of networking with other elements within the theatre of war for situational awareness (okay, this system could also be loaded onto a fourth generation fighter too, as long as there are enough space in the aircraft, this can be loaded).

Of course of the above four, I am only seeing that the main difference of a fifth generation fighter to a fourth generation fighter actually differ only in that a fifth generation fighter had all aspect stealth incorporated into its features and that is about all. In actual fact, with the all aspect stealth even when armed, would also make carrying lesser missiles, size of the missiles, etc. If they hang those missiles outside, then they would lose their stealth.
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Sorry to say, that is a load of bull.

What is stealth? it is relative, which angle? which perspective? to what sensor?

Super maneuverability; no fighter nowadays can out maneuver a WW1 fighter; whats super maneuverability? definitly the F35 have issues dog fighting a Typhoon or a Su-30/Mig-35

Supercruise, again, it is relative, heavily radar reduced fighters like the Typhoon, Rafale, Griphen can super cruise and are more maneuverable than a F35 or even maybe better/equal to a F22 as JG74 showed

sensor fusion, again is relative, no "fifth gen" fighter suite is better than a 4++ fighter.

Survivability, how? no 5 gen, or any fighter for that matter, will survive well with a missile up its ass, or several cannon holes. survivability was supposed to be provided by stealth, but why list it out as a separate thing?

Lezt just say your arguments are "out of date", world war one fighter is "supermaneuverable", OK its also slow and vulnerable to any modern fighter. The F-22 Raptor remains the gold standard for fifth gen, and aeronauts 5S doctrine is much better than his previous laundry list, which unfortunately "aeronaut", your little bird wouldn't carry 1/2 of all the goodies on your first shopping list, but if you say forget that, lets try to include the 5s doctrine, now you're back on target. Now Lezt, why are the Russians and the Chinese trying to replicate the Raptor? if gen 5 is no better than 4+? So its safe to say the US, and its partners, China, and Russia all disagree with YOU. Your poor old strawman, is not up to the task of winning this argument for you? maybe you two can share a Coke and a smile????
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
I have a hunch you might have said the same thing to someone who said "China will be testing 2 stealth fighters, an UCAV, a carrier based fighter and couple other new variants of existing fighters in five years" 5 years ago.

I certainly was.

Actually foxy, I doubt Jeff was surprised by anything that you listed as a Chinese mark of having arrived, as Master Jeff has been predicting many of these and more activities for a long time, as he is a long time Sino defense enthusiast. Robert Gates might have been surprised, but those of us, who have watched China capitalize on its American consumer windfall, are not surprised that China has rolled that into modernizing and building its military.....
 

Lezt

Junior Member
Lezt just say your arguments are "out of date", world war one fighter is "supermaneuverable", OK its also slow and vulnerable to any modern fighter. The F-22 Raptor remains the gold standard for fifth gen, and aeronauts 5S doctrine is much better than his previous laundry list, which unfortunately "aeronaut", your little bird wouldn't carry 1/2 of all the goodies on your first shopping list, but if you say forget that, lets try to include the 5s doctrine, now you're back on target. Now Lezt, why are the Russians and the Chinese trying to replicate the Raptor? if gen 5 is no better than 4+? So its safe to say the US, and its partners, China, and Russia all disagree with YOU. Your poor old strawman, is not up to the task of winning this argument for you? maybe you two can share a Coke and a smile????

NP AFB, my argument is only to prove a fallacy and that it has done; it is not to win an argument but to show that the original pretext is questionable.

I did not say that a 5 gen is no better than a 4+ gen; you did. let me ask you a question, would you rather fly in a F35 with a RCS almost as large as a Typhoon against a Typhoon right now? Fifth gen does not automatically make it better. Which mind you, would have a larger IR signature on the IRST.

Besides, the PAK-FA and the J20 is not an imitation of the F22; for starters, the F22 is a trapezoidal winged aircraft, J20 is a canard tailless delta and the PAK FA is cropped delta with tail plane. They maybe designed for the same role, but the methods in which it is being achieved is different as well.

Its friday, lets bring out the johney walker.
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
I see it as America capitalizing on Chinese cheap labor windfall.

Well, I must say I am not surprised, but those American free traders have raised the standard of living in China, even aboard the Liaoning, and in the Chinese military at large, and it was a windfall, perhaps you should ask those who have been given a lift out of poverty before pronouncing judgement??? end Off Topic

Has anyone heard whether the rumor of a second prototype is true, it would lend viability to this whole project if it is true???
 

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Well, I must say I am not surprised, but those American free traders have raised the standard of living in China, even aboard the Liaoning, and in the Chinese military at large, and it was a windfall, perhaps you should ask those who have been given a lift out of poverty before pronouncing judgement??? end Off Topic

uh the standard of living in China were not "raised" by the Americans. The Chinese earned their living with blood and sweat.
 
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