You forget a major advantage compared with JSF: there won't be a STOVL version.
Shenyang FC-31 / J-31 Fighter Demonstrator
- Thread starter RedSky
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Okay, link us to any kind of official Chinese government site that lists these requirements as you have defined them.
If you are going to make a statement that this list is definitely a list for the Chinese 5th gen program, back it up with documentation.
Now, as AFB indicated, it is a good list...but I too believe that it is more of a laundry list of what they would like to achieve.
The most advanced aircraft builders in the world today, who have thrown hundreds and hundreds of billions of dollars at the issue, have not gotten all of those items into a single engine.
It is highly unlikely, even to the point of being completely improbable that the Chinese aircraft engine industry is going to do so in the near future.
This does not mean they will not produce good engines, because I fully expect they will...it's just that indicating that you have full faith that they are going to incorporate all of this within the foreseeable future is wistful thinking I am afraid.
Aeronaut
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Aviation experts.
5th generation platforms are defined by 5S doctrine.
* Stealth
* Supermaneuverability
* Supercruise
* Sensor fusion
* Survivability
Aeronaut
New Member
I didn't stress on including all features. Since PT-31001 has a long way to go in development, the end product should include features that are necessary for all fifth gen jets.
Because the Raptor was designed as an 'Air Dominance Fighter', not as a 'Multirole Fighter'. The Skunkworks design philosophy was to create a jet that is capable of shooting down Soviet jets with AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles without being seen till an irreversible attrition rate is inflicted upon the enemy. Though Raptors were designed to be Air Dominance aircrafts, they do have the capability to deploy air to ground weapons but it wasn't built into the design philosophy of the raptor as a core requirement.
F-35 will achieve supercruise capability. As far as i know, a new engine is under development for that purpose.
You are looking at things in black and white. The Raptor's development started in the late 80's. Yes its a 5th generation aircraft and its cockpit layout is very advanced. If we take the examples of F-35, SAAB JAS-39 Gripen-NG, and Boeing's advanced F/A-18 Super Hornet as a few examples of how sensor output is projected to a pilot on a single piece cockpit display we can clearly establish that this is the new 'trend' for information display.
Chinese companies too have displayed single piece cockpit displays which is testament to the fact that we are likely to see similar interface layouts on upcoming Chinese jets.
Again, F-22 is a product of the 80's and 90s. As a design which was raised from the drawing board for Beyond Visual Range combat, the F-22 didn't need a helmet mounted targeting system. The new upgrade on Raptors will feature a HMTS. Please update yourself |
As for PAK-FA it too will have a HMTs when it becomes operational.
F-22 is not a maintenance nightmare. It has suffered issues regarding its onboard oxygen generation systems. Other than that i have not heard anything in this regard. F-35 has been designed to be an easy to operate and maintain aircraft. I don't know what you have been reading.
5S standards.
There is no 'official' list, nor did i claim to have one.
How sensor generated information (Targeting, flight data etc) is projected for a pilot to give him the 'information advantage' over the adversary.
Its not a criteria, though voice enabled command and control allows the pilot to interact with the machine without physical intervention. Different features can be utilized simply through a vocal command. This feature is available on the F35 and Typhoons.
Again, i didn't claim my above list to be the 'Bible Truth' as my folks here are making it out to be. New generation jets should be easy to maintain, since digital diagnostics is available to detect and troubleshoot problems. A similar system is inbuilt into our JF-17s, which makes it easier to maintain than our F-16A/Bs.
That is precisely what i meant.
You forget a major advantage compared with JSF: there won't be a STOVL version.
If the Chinese NAVY wants a STOVL version, i think that the Chinese aviation industry is capable of delivering one.
I didn't claim that its 'definately a list of the Chinese 5th gen platform'. Please read my post once more.
First of all i am yet to find an engine that has costed 'hundreds of billions of dollars' (excuse my ignorance here). The vectoring nozzles are optional and are under development in China as far as i have read. Therefore i don't think that i have stated anything out of the blue.
That is a pessimistic projection, i would chose to disagree with.
We know that a WS-13A engine with 100kn of afterburning thrust is under development, so are vectoring nozzles. I do have faith in Chinese industry that they would have the ability to deliver such a power package by the time these jets make it to the final assembly lines. Both J-20 and 31001 are being built as modular platforms to support different engines as they see upgrades and improvements and new power packages come onboard.
My-2cents.
Best Regards.
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thunderchief
Senior Member
Otherwise good post, but this is very doubtful . F-35 shape is completely wrong for supercruise, and the engine would have to be significantly more powerful then current one to achieve that. In fact, they have problems with F-35 going supersonic even with afterburners and claimed top speed of 1.6 Mach is very difficult to achieve .
Sorry to say, that is a load of bull.
What is stealth? it is relative, which angle? which perspective? to what sensor?
Super maneuverability; no fighter nowadays can out maneuver a WW1 fighter; whats super maneuverability? definitly the F35 have issues dog fighting a Typhoon or a Su-30/Mig-35
Supercruise, again, it is relative, heavily radar reduced fighters like the Typhoon, Rafale, Griphen can super cruise and are more maneuverable than a F35 or even maybe better/equal to a F22 as JG74 showed
sensor fusion, again is relative, no "fifth gen" fighter suite is better than a 4++ fighter.
Survivability, how? no 5 gen, or any fighter for that matter, will survive well with a missile up its ass, or several cannon holes. survivability was supposed to be provided by stealth, but why list it out as a separate thing?
Your original statement was for a 5th gen fighter, not a 5th gen multi role fighter; so are you saying that a fighter can omit items from your list and still be a 5th gen fighter?
You see the fallacy of your statement?
I have a hunch you might have said the same thing to someone who said "China will be testing 2 stealth fighters, an UCAV, a carrier based fighter and couple other new variants of existing fighters in five years" 5 years ago.
I certainly was.
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