Shenyang FC-31 / J-31 Fighter Demonstrator

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Dizasta1

Dizasta1

Senior Member
Jeff Head said:
I am speaking of the J-20 specifically, which you agreed that the Chinese would not export to Pakistan. I do not believe that the PRC will ever offer the J-20 to Pakistan.

As to other systems, well of course China has already shown a willingness to export those systems to Pakistan (frigates, aircraft, etc.) and will continue to do so. There was no intent on my part to say or imply anything differently as regards Pakistan.
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Pakistan Air Force's strategic objective is to establish and maintain Air-Supremacy over it's air space. Essentially to not give the enemy even an inch of it's air space.

Depending on what the enemy has and if we are able or not to achieve our objectives with what we have, would Pakistan approach China. And whether China should approve it. Be it JF-17, J-10B, J-31 or J-20, all procurements are based on the factors mentioned above.
 
Zahid

Zahid

Junior Member
stibyssip said:
and since china already gave pakistan nukes.
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Sorry for OT, but I must challenge this.

This is an oft repeated fiction spread by Indians mostly.

Chinese are not that stupid. They may have helped with some technical issues, but any one saying that China gave Pakistan nukes knows nothing about Pakistan's nuclear program. Pakistan's nuclear devices are indigenous.
 
M

Munir

Banned Idiot
Zahid said:
Sorry for OT, but I must challenge this.

This is an oft repeated fiction spread by Indians mostly.

Chinese are not that stupid. They may have helped with some technical issues, but any one saying that China gave Pakistan nukes knows nothing about Pakistan's nuclear program. Pakistan's nuclear devices are indigenous.
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Let me put is very very open...

Indeed Pak design are made by Pakistani engineers but China: THANK YOU.
 
S

stibyssip

New Member
Jeff Head said:
They do...it's politics and depending on the administration and their politics, changes occur...on both sides of the aisle.

The decision to stop the F-22 production occurred many years after the cold war ended. The fighter was designed to address emerging capabilities long after the cold war...which it does very well. The issue of cost is a red herring as the aircraft was already in serial production and every new plane reduced the overall cost per aircraft. The decision to stop it was based on a demonstrably false premise that no other nations had yet produced a fighter capable of dealing with the F-22.
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i do not know the exact reasons that were used to justify the ending of f-22 procurement, but whatever they were, they are surely issues of cost and benefit. even if the americans could pump out f-22s at diminishing marginal costs (due to high initial developmental costs and economies of scale), the absolute cost per aircraft is still very high compared with alternatives.

the f-22 program may have finally bitten the dust a good while after the end of the cold war, but because of its delayed schedule and the low volume adoption of the finished aircraft, it is in my opinion not unreasonable to think that the disappearence of america's foremost military adversary (changing forecasts of potential battle scenarios) may have something to do with the matter. it's also notable that the f-22 is the first major fighter platform that america released after the cold war, with its development straddling the fall of the USSR

Zahid said:
Sorry for OT, but I must challenge this.

This is an oft repeated fiction spread by Indians mostly.

Chinese are not that stupid. They may have helped with some technical issues, but any one saying that China gave Pakistan nukes knows nothing about Pakistan's nuclear program. Pakistan's nuclear devices are indigenous.
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perhaps china did not literally GIVE (as in transfering complete units) nukes to pakistan, but this is not what i wished to suggest. it is from my pakistani friends that i have heard that china had a enabling role to play in pakistan's acquisition of nukes. i meant "gave" in a more loose way than you may have taken it.

as to the j-31, i have little doubt that it will be available for export when the project is mature. it may be relatively advanced but is by no means cutting edge when compared to what the west has access to. in addition, countries potentially adversarial to china will probably get f-35s anyways so i doubt the chinese are much worried the problem of export j-31s coming back to bite them.
 
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Jeff Head

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Dizasta1 said:
Pakistan Air Force's strategic objective is to establish and maintain Air-Supremacy over it's air space. Essentially to not give the enemy even an inch of it's air space.

Be it JF-17, J-10B, J-31 or J-20, all procurements are based on the factors mentioned above.
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Of course that will be what Pakistan bases its procurement decisions upon. Just as Japan, or China, or any other country does.

But, whether they get the J-20 from China is a completely different matter. Japan, one of the US closest allies, wanted the F-22 for the same reasons...but they did not get it, and never will...even when doing so would have kept that line producing for several more years.

I absolutely believe that the same thing will be true of the J-20 for Pakistan. The J-31 may be an entirely different matter (Just as the F-35 is). We will just have to wait and see.
 
timepass

timepass

Brigadier
Jeff Head said:
But, whether they get the J-20 from China is a completely different matter. Japan, one of the US closest allies, wanted the F-22 for the same reasons...but they did not get it, and never will...even when doing so would have kept that line producing for several more years.
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Thats the difference between Yanks & Chinese.

Pakistan have full faith on China, which is proven over decades & we as Pakistanis are full aware that we will not be betrayed by our Chinese friends unlike Uncle SAM.

Further, either is J20 or any other equipment, if we need it we will get it from China.

Rest is on the world who wana believe this or not, we don't care.
 
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A

adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
Like it or not, the F-22 will remain the most advanced and capable stealth fighter for years to come. One reason why the US Government decided not to export the F-22 aircraft, is to prevent the proliferation of F-22's technology, and to maintain America's leading position. There is no downgraded F-22 export variant, because the F-35 already serves that role.

As for China's J-20 and J-31, they're not anywhere near export status.
 
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Verum

Verum

Junior Member
Pakistan can't afford a plane as expensive as this, unless China gives it to Pakistan through loans (de jure) but really just gifts (de facto). Any warplanes wouldn't be effective unless there are large number of it, even for the mighty F22. If Pakistan wants to match Indian Airforce's dominance in the region, they would need at least 100+ of those birds, that's still assuming India doesn't have PAK-FA yet. If Indians do have PAKFA, then they'll need few hundred of those planes to just even catch up.

Like I said weeks ago about the JF17/FC1, China doesn't have that many allies or long term clients. For those that they do, they're all too poor or too small to need weapons this advanced. Those that are rich enough and a heavy industry to support it, are all under international embargo. Now comes the J31, which is even more sophisticated and costly. The only ones that want to buy something this advanced includes Iran, Thailand, Pakistan, North Korea, Egypt, Venuezuela, and the Gulf States. But there's an even bigger problem. Iran and North Korea is under international sanction. Thailand and Egypt aren't desperate for something this advanced, their F16's are suffice; especially their problem is internal rather than a external military conflict. Some Gulf States did buy weapons from China, but those are small batch low budget army howitzers. Nothing as big as warplanes. Most of the real big buyers would only buy from EU/US. Pakistan and Venuzuela are the only remaining two. Although Venuezuela does have big cash reserves, they have a tiny airforce and doesn't show need to expand it.

But as for Pakistan, the Pakistani ground crews will only be able to do basic maintenance. Any big overhauls or deep maintenance, especially when involving the radar absobent material, will require the plane to be sent back to China.

So China can't really export J31 at all. The best they could do is "give" it to Pakistan.

Chinese strategists and planners are not stupid. It's impossible that J-31 was privately funded and intended for export.
 
L

latenlazy

Brigadier
Verum said:
Pakistan can't afford a plane as expensive as this, unless China gives it to Pakistan through loans (de jure) but really just gifts (de facto). Any warplanes wouldn't be effective unless there are large number of it, even for the mighty F22. If Pakistan wants to match Indian Airforce's dominance in the region, they would need at least 100+ of those birds, that's still assuming India doesn't have PAK-FA yet. If Indians do have PAKFA, then they'll need few hundred of those planes to just even catch up.

Like I said weeks ago about the JF17/FC1, China doesn't have that many allies or long term clients. For those that they do, they're all too poor or too small to need weapons this advanced. Those that are rich enough and a heavy industry to support it, are all under international embargo. Now comes the J31, which is even more sophisticated and costly. The only ones that want to buy something this advanced includes Iran, Thailand, Pakistan, North Korea, Egypt, Venuezuela, and the Gulf States. But there's an even bigger problem. Iran and North Korea is under international sanction. Thailand and Egypt aren't desperate for something this advanced, their F16's are suffice; especially their problem is internal rather than a external military conflict. Some Gulf States did buy weapons from China, but those are small batch low budget army howitzers. Nothing as big as warplanes. Most of the real big buyers would only buy from EU/US. Pakistan and Venuzuela are the only remaining two. Although Venuezuela does have big cash reserves, they have a tiny airforce and doesn't show need to expand it.

But as for Pakistan, the Pakistani ground crews will only be able to do basic maintenance. Any big overhauls or deep maintenance, especially when involving the radar absobent material, will require the plane to be sent back to China.

So China can't really export J31 at all. The best they could do is "give" it to Pakistan.

Chinese strategists and planners are not stupid. It's impossible that J-31 was privately funded and intended for export.
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We don't know how expensive this plane is. You're also forgetting Malaysia, Indonesia, Argentina, Brazil, Vietnam, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE, Turkey etc etc.

And I wouldn't use the JF-17's record to determine how successful or not the J-31 will be. They're two very different products geared towards different demands. That's not to say the J-31 will be successful, but that it's opportunities are not as limited as you're suggesting.
 
Equation

Equation

Lieutenant General
adeptitus said:
Like it or not, the F-22 will remain the most advanced and capable stealth fighter for years to come. One reason why the US Government decided not to export the F-22 aircraft, is to prevent the proliferation its technology, and to maintain America's leading position. There is no downgraded F-22 export variant, because the F-35 already serves that role.

As for China's J-20 and J-31, they're not anywhere near export status.
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Current state of China's J-20 and J-31 means nothing in the larger picture. What matters is the strength of the program to progress along and well into the future to surpass even the best of today.
 
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