Now Delft, or should I say old mother hubbard, the space shuttle was and is a monumental and unequivicable success, and the real mystery is how they did all that with such an outstanding safety record, looking at the failure rate of other projects in all Nations. Your own engineering sense is no doubt outstanding, and inspite of your carping I really do love you as a brother, I'm sure we could be like Eng/Mig29, but I agree completely that modern management or mismanagement leads to casualties and it is a crying shame. So even though we had significant and heartbreaking loses, we also had a very succusfull run in a very cruel and unforgiving environment, I hate the retirement of the shuttle and believe that will be looked on a sorry decision in the future. AFB