Shenyang FC-31 / J-31 Fighter Demonstrator

MiG-29 said:

However now we live a globalize world, no aerospace industry is nowadays purely national, today all fighters are international programs not even PAKFA or F-22 are exception.

China is no exception, however some countries try to reduce dependance in foreign sources, so China is trying to build its fleet of stealth fighters with the less foreign participation, but this day we are mostly living in a global village

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Couldn't agree with you more.

There is no such things as building everything from ground up independently. In today's context, there simply is no reasons (politically and economically) to create a complex system like the Stealth aircrafts from ground up alone and totally indigeniously. True, the fighter can be 100% design by a country, but some of the sub-components will definitely be from other sources, whoever can get the parts out cheapest, best and fastest would get the contract.

OT

Air Force Brat said:

I realized early on Player that as an American, I was and am extremely priviledged and blessed to be born in what was a Christian Nation. One of the reasons that many Americans are generous is that sense of being blessed and having a desire to share what we have, including our freedoms and self-determination. I know that I have no idea what you and many others have been through, and I assure you that it is not arrogance, but a desire to share that motivates many of the actions that others may resent. I have good friends that I love from, Bangladesh, India, and Africa, and now China, whose struggles break my heart. I hate to see my own Nation move away from the belief in our Master, that has brought so much blessing and abundance, and I hate thinking that our children will miss these blessings if we don't turn this around. I assure you my brother, that you are far from ordinary, and have a very kind and gracious heart, like that Chinese lady who rescued those babies from the dumps, she is in many ways like Mother Theresa, a true heroine, and you my brother have a true nobility that transcends our cultural differences, and I really do consider you a true friend. Thanks for sharing a little wisdom with me, and I hope at some point that I can be a blessing to you as well. Bax

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The blessing and abundance derives from getting a large country without much of the land being occupied by "noble" land owners as was the case in Europe until a century ago, with a sitting population that was reduced by drought ( a town in Ohio (?) some thousand years ago is said to have been as large as London at the time ), which was further reduced by infectious diseases brought from Europe and Africa, many of which were killed in armed conflict and the remains of which were then confined to reservations. Until about a century ago a price was paid for every killed Indian in California.
I just read a book, in Dutch so it giving its details will not be useful, but whose title translates as "Forgotten Inheritance - the Eastern roots of the Western culture". It shows better than I knew already that much of European culture derives from Mesopotamia and Egypt and much less than generally said from Greece and Rome, that it was transmitted by the Muslims and that the contribution of the Muslims themselves is even larger. The European universities that were founded from about AD 1000 were based on Muslim practices, to give just one example.
Btw the cowboy culture was derived from Spanish cattle practices in Mexico which was derived from practices in Al Andaluce and Morocco.

NikeX said:

there is no indication China will have it any easier.

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To say that the progress in engineering process management and streamlining of the R&D processes has had no impact on development is patently false. More than anything China has benefited from dual use commercial technologies and engineering management than any other area. They can do it cheaper and faster thanks to access to supercomputers, replacing time consuming real world testing with simulations and utilising off the shelf development tools rather than waste decades developing some proprietary process, all this means China can trim years off the development cycle. It's not some big secret, it's the same strategy that's been applied to many industries throughout China.

z117 said:

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To say that the progress in engineering process management and streamlining of the R&D processes has had no impact on development is patently false. More than anything China has benefited from dual use commercial technologies and engineering management than any other area. They can do it cheaper and faster thanks to access to supercomputers, replacing time consuming real world testing with simulations and utilising off the shelf development tools rather than waste decades developing some proprietary process, all this means China can trim years off the development cycle. It's not some big secret, it's the same strategy that's been applied to many industries throughout China.

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And the world.

latenlazy said:

And the world.

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While much of the technology is on the open market, and China is indeed the "factory" for the world, some of it is proprietary and copy-righted from others research and hard work and investment. You may be gifted, purchase or "borrow" such material, as we bought the lift-fan tech from Yak, to assist us with the B model of the F-35, but the subsequent problems with the B model serve to illustrate what Nike X is trying to say. The real world integration and execution of that tech is a process, or else we would be up to our armpits in Chengdu's new J-birds given China's expertise in being able to manufacture "what the Dr. ordered". I admire China's rising star, but lest we be star struck, I would remind you that we too were rising stars in the not to distant past, reminds me of a "Bad Company" song "Shooting Star" or maybe the good old Lockheed P-80 of the same name, I would remind you of the turbines, buried in airplanes, that ate bearings and blades, associated FOD, in our long haul, and as I enjoy saying, "yes, it is rocket science"! The tech gives you a leg up, but it doesn't mean you won't have to "figure it out " to graduate from engineering school, just ask Mr Jeff Head, he R an engineer, and brings home a check to prove it! They call that "sweat equity", and it don't come in a plain brown envelope from Walmart.

Air Force Brat said:

While much of the technology is on the open market, and China is indeed the "factory" for the world, some of it is proprietary and copy-righted from others research and hard work and investment. You may be gifted, purchase or "borrow" such material, as we bought the lift-fan tech from Yak, to assist us with the B model of the F-35, but the subsequent problems with the B model serve to illustrate what Nike X is trying to say. The real world integration and execution of that tech is a process, or else we would be up to our armpits in Chengdu's new J-birds given China's expertise in being able to manufacture "what the Dr. ordered". I admire China's rising star, but lest we be star struck, I would remind you that we too were rising stars in the not to distant past, reminds me of a "Bad Company" song "Shooting Star" or maybe the good old Lockheed P-80 of the same name, I would remind you of the turbines, buried in airplanes, that ate bearings and blades, associated FOD, in our long haul, and as I enjoy saying, "yes, it is rocket science"! The tech gives you a leg up, but it doesn't mean you won't have to "figure it out " to graduate from engineering school, just ask Mr Jeff Head, he R an engineer, and brings home a check to prove it! They call that "sweat equity", and it don't come in a plain brown envelope from Walmart.

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In today`s world, we live in a world where technology is more accesible, so we are going to see a more equitative distribution of technology, why? simple because the industrial process is international.

In Mexico, for example big companies are building or designing jet engines or turbine blades or fuselages for big American or European companies, Today not even Russia can stop doing it, the China factor is not unique, India, Brazil or other nations are folowing the trend.


The US is not in decay, it simply is adjusting to realities of the industrial process, we are living a multipolar world, China`s abilities to build a J-20 or J-31 is just the result of that.

The ability of the Chinese to build a jet engine or a stealth air frame is normal in a world where technological process is present anywhere.

In the West and in Russia, they accepted that already, they know it will be impossible to stop other core nations from developing technology, in fact today in Mexico, we design the turbine fans for ITP a Spanish-British company, the same engines that power Airbus or Boeing aircraft and GE does some design of the new engine for Boeing 787 in Mexico.


I mean the reality is the industrial process means corporations and not nations are holding the key positions as technology holders


China has in its new J-20 and J-31 some foreign elements simply because is part of the design process.

The US will remain a tech power and and core nation but its power will be matched by other nations at the end.

z117 said:

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To say that the progress in engineering process management and streamlining of the R&D processes has had no impact on development is patently false. More than anything China has benefited from dual use commercial technologies and engineering management than any other area. They can do it cheaper and faster thanks to access to supercomputers, replacing time consuming real world testing with simulations and utilising off the shelf development tools rather than waste decades developing some proprietary process, all this means China can trim years off the development cycle. It's not some big secret, it's the same strategy that's been applied to many industries throughout China.

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This is not a zero sum game. As other non-Chinese manufactures see what is going on in China they will increase their efforts to maintain their lead over China. The target China is trying to hit is a moving one.

NikeX said:

This is not a zero sum game. As other non-Chinese manufactures see what is going on in China they will increase their efforts to maintain their lead over China. The target China is trying to hit is a moving one.

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So is your argument, apparently. There's a difference between saying that the J-20 will take as long as the F-22 to develop, and saying by the time the J-20 enters service there will be something better out there. A world of difference in those two claims.

All the chatter about the new Chinese stealth fighter and no talk of power plants!! Is it possible to conceive that the Gen-5 stealth fighter (J-31) would be powered by a Gen-3+ engine? Really? That is just wrong!

Where is the WS-13? What happened to the WS-10A? And is there any factual proof that the J-20s would be powered by the WS-15?

latenlazy said:

So is your argument, apparently. There's a difference between saying that the J-20 will take as long as the F-22 to develop, and saying by the time the J-20 enters service there will be something better out there. A world of difference in those two claims.

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Since you sidestepped my original question let me ask you the question this way: Do you think China can overtake those aircraft manufactures who currently hold a sizable lead of Chinese aerospace?

And if your answer is yes then how can China do it?