Self Propelled Gun/Rocket Launcher

Tam said:

Not supposed?

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Yes. If you can't protect your airspace from propeller-driven non-stealth UAVs, you failed at air defense.

Tam said:

But they do. And they can do it relentlessly, as UAVs can fly higher than MANPADS but cost far less, by magnitudes, than the SAM needed to take them down. Unless you can dramatically reduce the cost of the SAM and deploy them in large numbers in vehicles.

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SAMs most certainly can be made cheaper than drones and most are. Against small quadrotor drones there are options such as EW, AAA and directed energy weapons.

Tam said:

Competent opponent today will send a drone to where the counterbattery radar says the opposing artillery is. They no longer just fire at it. The drone will identify the target, and direct or adjust artillery to it. But that's only option one.

Option 2 is the drone is a loitering or barrage ammunition itself, and attacks the SPG directly.

Option 3. Drone is a recon unit and calls for a loitering drone.

Option 4. Drone tracks the SPG to it's hiding place and the opponent destroys both the SPG and the hanger it tried to hide into, using Option 3, 5, and 6. Or maybe a guided, winged bomb.

Option 5. Drone finds SPG, sends GPS coordinates, and a missile or a guided munition is headed to that location.

Option 6. Drone lights up the target with a laser, and a laser guided artillery shell will drop on it.

None of these are theoretical. They happen all the time in the Ukraine War. Every single day. Countless SPGs and mobile MLRS are already destroyed from this. On top of all other mobile units with tracks and wheels getting blown up.

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Yes, which is why mobility is critical. You can't serious argue that it is better to be a literal sitting duck.

SPG and in fact all mechanised units need to incorporate SHORAD and anti-drones EW units with them. It will be expensive but if you can afford it why not? A successful bombardment from SPG or the destruction of thr SPG units may have the effect of winning or losing a battle. And the financial cost of SHORAD units attaching to SPG units would not be unbearable if the tactical value of winning a battle is far greater.

SPG is definitely more survival than towed artillery due to enemy's anti-battery radar. Strike drones are now a norm therefore detection, tracking and destruction/disabling the enemy's drones shall be added countermeasure on top of the shoot and scoot tactic. Serious thoughts must be taken on how to defend your SPG and towed artilley, or any important assets using layers of SHORAD and EW.

Heavy investment in laser defense, detection and tracking sensors, micro-missiles, small calibre proximity-fuzed rounds etc should be seriously considered.

In short, a military unit consisted of purely artillery tubes shoulds be revised to a combined unit with both offensive and self-defense capability.

Jason_ said:

SAMs most certainly can be made cheaper than drones and most are.

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That is not accurate.

The lowest-cost SAM is like a Pantsir SAM, which has no seeker, but still costs $50K from what I saw previously.

Next up is something like a Stinger, which costs $120K+

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In comparison, we see Shaheed-136 cost estimates at $20-50K
And recently, an even simpler version has been seen which is estimated at only $10K

Jason_ said:

Against small quadrotor drones there are options such as EW, AAA and directed energy weapons.

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Remember that these defensive options (EW, AAA and directed energy) are very short-ranged.

But given that the SAMs have run already run out (see scenario above), you can have high-flying larger UAVs provide surveillance and targeting of the remaining short-ranged air defences.

Given that these targets are air defence units, it makes sense to use more high-end weapons systems. But they can always fall back on large numbers of $500 FPV drones in autonomous mode.

AndrewS said:

That is not accurate.

The lowest-cost SAM is like a Pantsir SAM, which has no seeker, but still costs $50K from what I saw previously.

Next up is something like a Stinger, which costs $120K+

===

In comparison, we see Shaheed-136 cost estimates at $20-50K
And recently, an even simpler version has been seen which is estimated at only $10K




Remember that these defensive options (EW, AAA and directed energy) are very short-ranged.

But given that the SAMs have run already run out (see scenario above), you can have high-flying larger UAVs provide surveillance and targeting of the remaining short-ranged air defences.

Given that these targets are air defence units, it makes sense to use more high-end weapons systems. But they can always fall back on large numbers of $500 FPV drones in autonomous mode.

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Shaheds can be downed with gunfire, which is far cheaper than a drone will ever be. No decent air defense is going to be lacking in AAA. For the sort that flies too high for AAA, SAMs are cost effective.

amchan said:

Shaheds can be downed with gunfire, which is far cheaper than a drone will ever be. No decent air defense is going to be lacking in AAA. For the sort that flies too high for AAA, SAMs are cost effective.

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Gunfire has short range. So how many gun AA units do you think you need to have to provide credible defense?

tankphobia said:

True shoot and scoot is essential in modern threat landscape. Unmanned turret allows for quick barrage before disengaging, minimising risk of getting spotted by UAVs. I would not be surprised if this eventually gets developed into a fully autonomous system with self driving capabilities.

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Ironically, scooters have long since proven to be easier to catch in Ukraine.
Radar-aimee counter battery is harder to get right than just catch a moving howitzer and either lancet it (even on the move if lucky), or attack it's hiding spot with gmlrs.

Spotting moving targets is just easier due to drone proliferation.

amchan said:

Shaheds can be downed with gunfire, which is far cheaper than a drone will ever be. No decent air defense is going to be lacking in AAA. For the sort that flies too high for AAA, SAMs are cost effective.

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A burst of programmable low caliber shells with premade tungsten elements isn't exactly cheap either.

gelgoog said:

Gunfire has short range. So how many gun AA units do you think you need to have to provide credible defense?

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If they are out of range then it would be necessary to eat the cost and use an SAM. But those cases can be mitigated. The ideal answer would be a counter drone like the Raytheon Coyote block 1 or 3 or the HQ-17AEs drone canisters. But neither of those are deployed in large numbers. People attempting to claim that the drone issue cannot be handled are too focused on a conflict where neither side had the industry or competence to field these solutions properly.

amchan said:

neither side had the industry or competence to field these solutions properly.

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One side is combined Western mic(not at full mobilized power, but still it's the west), another - Russia (#1 producer of SAMs in the world, outproducing the whole other side together).

If you discard even this experience, you're quite... original, let's make it polite.
But it's useful to learn from all conflicts, much less those like this particular one.

amchan said:

Shaheds can be downed with gunfire, which is far cheaper than a drone will ever be. No decent air defense is going to be lacking in AAA. For the sort that flies too high for AAA, SAMs are cost effective.

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That isn't what will happen.

Take a small swarm of 60 Shaheed. Mix in 2 surveillance drones which are indistinguishable.

They fly at high altitude above the target airbase or target city, beyond the range of AA guns. They can loiter for hours. The SAMs have already run out, because Shaheeds are far cheaper than SAMs.

The first Shaheed attacks, forcing the AA gun to reveal itself.

The surveillance drones track the AA gun (or any other short range air defence unit) until it is destroyed, one way or another. Rinse and repeat until all the air defences are destroyed.

amchan said:

If they are out of range then it would be necessary to eat the cost and use an SAM. But those cases can be mitigated. The ideal answer would be a counter drone like the Raytheon Coyote block 1 or 3 or the HQ-17AEs drone canisters. But neither of those are deployed in large numbers. People attempting to claim that the drone issue cannot be handled are too focused on a conflict where neither side had the industry or competence to field these solutions properly.

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A coyote interceptor SAM costs like $100K.

In comparison a Shaheed would cost $10-20K.

That is a huge cost difference against the SAMs

China can produce a huge number of these low cost, simple Shaheeds which can fly at medium altitudes beyond the range of AA guns.

Even the US doesn't have the money nor manufacturing capacity to "eat" the cost of defensive SAMs to shoot them all down, as you put it.

That means China has control of the medium altitudes for surveillance drones to track and target anything underneath.