SDF Aerospace and Aerodynamics Corner

Re: J-20... The New Generation Fighter III

Engineer said:

Nonesense. PLAAF will eventually switch to WS-10A for all its planes is not a theory but a fact. This fact blows your theory completely out of the water. Furthermore, not only does the video shows that your statement regarding WS-10A not being used on aircraft as false, but the engine is reliable enough for use on a single-engine aircraft.

Once again, if AL-31 is so reliable and good, PLAAF would have induct its manufacturing line and even reversre-engineer the engine. PLAAF does neither. I'm still waiting for that statistics to show that AL-31FN is more reliable than WS-10A.

Click to expand...

tell me how many J-10s are build a year, show me how many J-10s squadrons are operational with WS-10 now in 2011?

i have never said the engine won`t get operational it is logic it will, but in 3-4 years time, not now

Re: J-20... The New Generation Fighter III

MiG-29 said:

i will ask you how many J-10s China builds every year?

how many J-10s are operational?

if production is beyond 100 a year well your theory is right, but if they build 20-30 no it is not right, because the most likely WS-10 will be deployed in 3-4 years after they run out of Al-31

Click to expand...

Your are asking the wrong questions. The question that you ought to be asking is "is China modifying the J-10 so that the plane will be equipped with WS-10A?" The answer to that question is an unequivocal yes, and that new J-10 is called J-10B. This J-10B will enter serial production once flight testings are completed, and it will replace the J-10A.

Another mainstay aircraft of PLAAF, the J-11B is already being serial produced eqipped with WS-10A engines

Why isn't AL-31 being used here if China finds AL-31 to be so reliable? China could have put on a reverse engineered version if needed, but China didn't. This shows China finds WS-10A just as acceptable as AL-31, or in other words, AL-31 is not more reliable than WS-10A.

WS-10A has had its share of reliability problems before, but things change quickly in the past two years and the problems have already been fixed.

Re: J-20... The New Generation Fighter III

MiG-29 said:

yet China still buys them.


Look, Al-31 are still bought by China for a reason, if not why use them you are simply saying an illogic thing, if WS-10 is more reliable no need for Al-31s, if PLAAF flying hours are near nato is around 180 hrs a year.

But flying hours are expensive specially in J-10s and J-20, those toys are ultra expensive considering average Chinese in one year won`t make the same amount of money to fly an hour on a J-10.

jets are expensives not diapers

Click to expand...

Al31 will only last a few years, maybe far shorter than 5-7 years, if Nato hours are flown. So PLA needs many Al31s for their J10As, old and new, and Su27/old J11, which are not designed to use WS10. Not to mention many more Al31s as spares due to its low reliability.
New engines with new production line like WS10 takes time to mature. To see Al31, a 30+ year old engine, losing out to WS10 on newer jets like J10B, J11Bs, J15 etc shows how serious the issues of Al31 are.

Re: J-20... The New Generation Fighter III

MiG-29 said:

tell me how many J-10s are build a year, show me how many J-10s squadrons are operational with WS-10 now in 2011?

i have never said the engine won`t get operational it is logic it will, but in 3-4 years time, not now

Click to expand...

It doesn't matter how many J-10s are being built each year, nor does it matter how many J-10s are using AL-31FN right now, because all these aircraft is J-10A which is not designed to equip the WS-10A. For this aircraft to equip with a WS-10A, there needs to be a modification, and that modification is the J-10B; specifically J-10B that equips with a WS-10A engine as we have seen in the video. This already happens.

Tell me why PLAAF didn't induct the manufacturing line of AL-31 or outright reversre-engineer the engine if it is so good? Tell me why we are seeing WS-10A powering J-10B and J-11B if this engine is not reliable as you claimed.

Re: J-20... The New Generation Fighter III

MiG-29 said:

the logic is the WS-10 will get into production, but it will only get after 3-4 years after the Al-31 run out of supply, use the logic, if China builds 120 J-10s a year they will run out of engines fast, but if they build 20-30 aircraft means they are planning to solve the problem in 3-4 years and then start full production of J-10s with WS-10s.

Similar to what Russia is doing on Type 129 and type 50 engines to be flown on PAKFA in 2017-2019

Click to expand...

Except it's looking to be a gradual switch over. Again, you don't just snap your finger and magically reach production capacity in an instant, which is why we're seeing them in service now, as a transition. I keep having to emphasize that the WS-10 needs to cover not just the J-10 but also the J-11, which means it needs to reach a high production capacity before it can be the mainstay. That said, the fact that it's already being inducted should resolve any questions of its reliability and readiness.

Re: J-20... The New Generation Fighter III

latenlazy said:

Except it's looking to be a gradual switch over. Again, you don't just snap your finger and magically reach production capacity in an instant, which is why we're seeing them in service now, as a transition. I keep having to emphasize that the WS-10 needs to cover not just the J-10 but also the J-11, which means it needs to reach a high production capacity before it can be the mainstay. That said, the fact that it's already being inducted should resolve any questions of its reliability and readiness.

Click to expand...

look we are just especulating, i will tell you what is the reality most possible possibilities


A) China builds 140 J-10s a year, so the Al-31 are for very few J-10s, this is highly unlikely

B)China builds 20-40 J-10s a year, if that is the case, a very few J-10s will be fitted with WS-10s while the vast majority are built with Al-31s until WS-10s is ready in 3-4 years time, this could be possible.

C)China builds 20-40 J-10s but still tests WS-10s on J-10s but if it fails will buy a further batch of 130 Al-31, this is possible until WS-10 is ready

WS-10A is already ready. We see serial production model of J-11Bs flying with WS-10A. We see J-10B is also eqipped with WS-10A. There's no ambiguity about these observation. What's not ready is J-10B itself. A new aircraft requires length flight tests, but this has nothing to do with readiness of the WS-10A.

Re: J-20... The New Generation Fighter III

MiG-29 said:

look we are just especulating, i will tell you what is the reality most possible possibilities

Click to expand...

How's it speculating when we already see a whole bunch of J-11Bs with the WS-10...

A) China builds 140 J-10s a year, so the Al-31 are for very few J-10s, this is highly unlikely

B)China builds 20-40 J-10s a year, if that is the case, a very few J-10s will be fitted with WS-10s while the vast majority are built with Al-31s until WS-10s is ready in 3-4 years time, this could be possible.

C)China builds 20-40 J-10s but still tests WS-10s on J-10s but if it fails will buy a further batch of 130 Al-31, this is possible until WS-10 is ready

Click to expand...

You keep on ignoring that WS-10 is also being used in the J-11, which ups the supply requirement and changes that math...

Re: J-20... The New Generation Fighter III

latenlazy said:

How's it speculating when we already see a whole bunch of J-11Bs with the WS-10...

You keep on ignoring that WS-10 is also being used in the J-11, which ups the supply requirement and changes that math...

Click to expand...

Chna bought 150 Al-31s for Flankers and 123 for J-10s, that leaves an equal of 75 Su-27 and 123 J-10 with further 130 Al-31s for J-10s as option .


China has signed a fifth contract with Russia’s Rosoboronexport for the supply of Saturn AL-31FN military turbofan engines from the MMPP Salyut factory to power the Chengdu J-10 multi-role fighter, according to reports from Moscow.

The reports say the $500 million contract covers 123 engines for delivery by 2013, with the first 13 expected before the end of this year. This would take known Chinese procurement of the AL31FN to 399, plus an unspecified number provided in an initial batch for prototypes and pre-production aircraft. Such numbers are in line with analysis concerning expected Chinese procurement of the J-10.
Based on the standard AL-31F used to power versions of the Su-27 Flanker, the FN was redesigned by MMPP Salyut with its gearbox and accessories relocated to underneath the engine. Salyut has offered a number of more powerful versions to China, although it appears that the engines supplied to China so far have been to a common standard.

This new order for the AL-31FN has inevitably raised speculation concerning China’s indigenous Shenyang Liming WS-10A Taihang engine developed by the 606 Institute. That engine was originally intended for installation in the J-10 at some point. It has been suggested that the WS-10A, while it has been flying for some time in the Shenyang J-11B and J-15 unlicensed Flanker derivatives, might not be deemed reliable enough for a single-engine application.

It is also plausible that the Shenyang Aero Engine Works does not have the capacity to satisfy the demands of the J-10 line, which is in full-rate production, or simply that the Chinese are content with the Russian powerplant and have no desire to chan

Re: J-20... The New Generation Fighter III

MiG-29 said:

Chna bought 150 Al-31s for Flankers and 123 for J-10s, that leaves an equal of 75 Su-27 and 123 J-10 with further 130 Al-31s for J-10s as option .


China has signed a fifth contract with Russia’s Rosoboronexport for the supply of Saturn AL-31FN military turbofan engines from the MMPP Salyut factory to power the Chengdu J-10 multi-role fighter, according to reports from Moscow.

The reports say the $500 million contract covers 123 engines for delivery by 2013, with the first 13 expected before the end of this year. This would take known Chinese procurement of the AL31FN to 399, plus an unspecified number provided in an initial batch for prototypes and pre-production aircraft. Such numbers are in line with analysis concerning expected Chinese procurement of the J-10.
Based on the standard AL-31F used to power versions of the Su-27 Flanker, the FN was redesigned by MMPP Salyut with its gearbox and accessories relocated to underneath the engine. Salyut has offered a number of more powerful versions to China, although it appears that the engines supplied to China so far have been to a common standard.

This new order for the AL-31FN has inevitably raised speculation concerning China’s indigenous Shenyang Liming WS-10A Taihang engine developed by the 606 Institute. That engine was originally intended for installation in the J-10 at some point. It has been suggested that the WS-10A, while it has been flying for some time in the Shenyang J-11B and J-15 unlicensed Flanker derivatives, might not be deemed reliable enough for a single-engine application.

It is also plausible that the Shenyang Aero Engine Works does not have the capacity to satisfy the demands of the J-10 line, which is in full-rate production, or simply that the Chinese are content with the Russian powerplant and have no desire to chan

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Click to expand...

You keep bringing up the new AL-31 orders, but just because they order new AL-31s does not necessitate that they cannot also be using WS-10s at the same time. Furthermore, that would be contrary to reality. New AL-31 orders does not negate the fact that all new J-11s we're seeing are equipped with WS-10s. The engine is in full production now, whether you accept that or not.

The demand fo turbofans is only going to go up in the next 5 years, since they're going to be introducing the J-15 and maybe a J-16 as well. It's not hard to imagine them ordering more AL-31s in anticipation of supply shortages, given that it's going to take time to expand production of the WS-10. Besides, you make it sound like those 150 engines instantly pop into existence. Technically the physical turbofans don't even exist yet. It will probably take about 5 years to fulfill an order of that size, and frankly that's exactly the same window in which we expect even greater demand for turbofans.