SDF Aerospace and Aerodynamics Corner

Engineer

Engineer

Major
Re: J-20... The New Generation Fighter III

MiG-29 said:
yet China still buys them.


Look, Al-31 are still bought by China for a reason, if not why use them you are simply saying an illogic thing, if WS-10 is more reliable no need for Al-31s, if PLAAF flying hours are near nato is around 180 hrs a year.

But flying hours are expensive specially in J-10s and J-20, those toys are ultra expensive considering average Chinese in one year won`t make the same amount of money to fly an hour on a J-10.

jets are expensives not diapers
Click to expand...
Of course China buys Al-31FN for a reason, but that reason is that J-10A cannot use WS-10A, and J-10B is still being tested and some time away from production. The situation now is that either China puts up with faults in Al-31FN to get new planes, or China gets no J-10 at all. It has nothing to do with Al-31 is more reliable. Arguing that Al-31 is more reliable, therefore China buys it and China buys Al-31, therefore it is reliable is
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. If you want to back up your claim that Al-31 is more reliable, show us statistics.

We have seen J-11B and J-15 being fitted with WS-10A. We also see recently that one J-10B is equipped with a WS-10A. That tells us that new aircraft will not be fitted with Al-31 after a year or two. If Al-31 is so good, why would China even need WS-10A? China could have imported the entire manufacturing line of Al-31, or failing that it could have just reverse-engineer the Al-31.
 
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Engineer

Engineer

Major
Re: J-20... The New Generation Fighter III

MiG-29 said:
[video=youtube;-frG_Z5WuT8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-frG_Z5WuT8&feature=player_embedded#![/video]
this proves why Al-31s are still being order.
Click to expand...

This says otherwise:
[video=youtube;kazrdADXO6I]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kazrdADXO6I[/video]
 
Quickie

Quickie

Colonel
This video, from 10:35, shows the WS-10x powered J-10B taking off. The engine spool-up to taking off thrust is even quicker than that of the J-20 and JF-17 in the same video.

[video=youtube;Wxtm2wVwLnA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wxtm2wVwLnA[/video]
 
I

i.e.

Senior Member
Re: J-20... The New Generation Fighter III

Engineer said:
China could have imported the entire manufacturing line of Al-31,.
Click to expand...

....and PLA was seriously considering it/ pushing for that exact solution.

But settled for a major rebuilt line/remanufacturing line ( that could turn into a full production line if the need arises - i.e. external sources cut off, or, WS-10 program total failure... )

the major opposition came from avic who argued successfully that a full domestic option is what's needed as industrial policy, and want to see their WS-10 to have the total funding support.

The current setup is a compromise. not a bad compromise I might add.
 
L

latenlazy

Brigadier
Re: J-20... The New Generation Fighter III

i.e. said:
....and PLA was seriously considering it/ pushing for that exact solution.

But settled for a major rebuilt line/remanufacturing line ( that could turn into a full production line if the need arises - i.e. external sources cut off, or, WS-10 program total failure... )

the major opposition came from avic who argued successfully that a full domestic option is what's needed as industrial policy, and want to see their WS-10 to have the total funding support.

The current setup is a compromise. not a bad compromise I might add.
Click to expand...

Which gets me wondering. Did they split funding between AL-31 maintenance lines and WS-10 production lines, and if so is that slowing down their ability to ramp up production of the WS-10? Another query--are they only buying enough WS-10s to keep the thing alive so they can impropve it, or are they actually going to move towards full adoption?
 
MiG-29

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Re: J-20... The New Generation Fighter III

Engineer said:
Of course China buys Al-31FN for a reason, but that reason is that J-10A cannot use WS-10A, and J-10B is still being tested and some time away from production. The situation now is that either China puts up with faults in Al-31FN to get new planes, or China gets no J-10 at all. It has nothing to do with Al-31 is more reliable. Arguing that Al-31 is more reliable, therefore China buys it and China buys Al-31, therefore it is reliable is
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
. If you want to back up your claim that Al-31 is more reliable, show us statistics.

We have seen J-11B and J-15 being fitted with WS-10A. We also see recently that one J-10B is equipped with a WS-10A. That tells us that new aircraft will not be fitted with Al-31 after a year or two. If Al-31 is so good, why would China even need WS-10A? China could have imported the entire manufacturing line of Al-31, or failing that it could have just reverse-engineer the Al-31.
Click to expand...

i will ask you how many J-10s China builds every year?

how many J-10s are operational?

if production is beyond 100 a year well your theory is right, but if they build 20-30 no it is not right, because the most likely WS-10 will be deployed in 3-4 years after they run out of Al-31
 
MiG-29

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Quickie said:
This video, from 10:35, shows the WS-10x powered J-10B taking off. The engine spool-up to taking off thrust is even quicker than that of the J-20 and JF-17 in the same video.

[video=youtube;Wxtm2wVwLnA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wxtm2wVwLnA[/video]
Click to expand...

TWR is an answer,　J-20 i doubt it has at this moment a TWR beyond the unit
 
MiG-29

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Re: J-20... The New Generation Fighter III

Engineer said:
This says otherwise:
[video=youtube;kazrdADXO6I]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kazrdADXO6I[/video]
Click to expand...

your theory in order to be true will need a picture not of a prototype which it is, but of delivery of operational aircraft, the video i posted is of operational aircraft
 
MiG-29

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Re: J-20... The New Generation Fighter III

latenlazy said:
Which gets me wondering. Did they split funding between AL-31 maintenance lines and WS-10 production lines, and if so is that slowing down their ability to ramp up production of the WS-10? Another query--are they only buying enough WS-10s to keep the thing alive so they can impropve it, or are they actually going to move towards full adoption?
Click to expand...

the logic is the WS-10 will get into production, but it will only get after 3-4 years after the Al-31 run out of supply, use the logic, if China builds 120 J-10s a year they will run out of engines fast, but if they build 20-30 aircraft means they are planning to solve the problem in 3-4 years and then start full production of J-10s with WS-10s.

Similar to what Russia is doing on Type 129 and type 50 engines to be flown on PAKFA in 2017-2019
 
Engineer

Engineer

Major
Re: J-20... The New Generation Fighter III

MiG-29 said:
your theory in order to be true will need a picture not of a prototype which it is, but of delivery of operational aircraft, the video i posted is of operational aircraft
Click to expand...

Nonesense. PLAAF will eventually switch to WS-10A for all its planes is not a theory but a fact. This fact blows your theory completely out of the water. Furthermore, not only does the video shows that your statement regarding WS-10A not being used on aircraft as false, but the engine is reliable enough for use on a single-engine aircraft.

Once again, if AL-31 is so reliable and good, PLAAF would have induct its manufacturing line and even reversre-engineer the engine. PLAAF does neither. I'm still waiting for that statistics to show that AL-31FN is more reliable than WS-10A.
 
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