Russian Su-57 Aircraft Thread (PAK-FA and IAF FGFA)

[Jura The idiot]

the current status as seen by defensenews.com:
Russia Lurking In India as Dassault Celebrates in Egypt

When Egypt signed an agreement to purchase 24 Dassault Rafale fighters, it marked a milestone for the program: the first international sale of the jet, which has struggled to find a market outside of its home nation of France.

But what should be a celebratory attitude at the company's Paris headquarters has instead turned glum, as the crown jewel of its expansion plans — a $12 billion deal with India that has been in the works since 2012 — now appears in danger, with Russia hovering nearby in the hope of stealing the contract.

If Dassault can finally cement the Indian deal, it will add 126 fighters to a production facing domestic budget cuts. If Russia can come in and undercut Dassault, it would seriously harm the future of the French fighter, while exacting some measure of revenge on France's decision not to deliver to Russia a naval vessel following the crisis in Ukraine.

In 2012, the Indian Defence Ministry made Dassault its preferred vendor to fill its Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft requirement. The Rafale beat out five other competitors — the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Lockheed Martin F-16, Mikoyan MiG-35, Saab JAS 39 Gripen and the Eurofighter Typhoon, the latter which was the runner up in the competition.

What seemed like a major win for the Rafale quickly entered a stalemate, however, in large part due to India pressuring Dassault to guarantee work produced by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), the Indian firm that would produce the domestic models of the jet. (Under the contract, Dassault would produce only 18 of the jets before turning production over to HAL.)

Such a guarantee puts a burden on the family-controlled Dassault, which thus far has declined to accept that agreement.

Cost concerns also come into play, with the French saying the cost of integration at HAL facilities would be higher than the normal Rafale because the productivity of labor at HAL is low compared to the plants in France. And after visiting the HAL facilities, Dassault officials concluded there are no economies of scale at HAL to help drive down the cost of the platform.

No resolution appears in sight. Richard Aboulafia, an analyst with the Teal Group, gives Dassault a 40 percent chance of landing the deal.

The obvious alternative to the Rafale is the Eurofighter Typhoon, which was the other finalist after the program downselection. Eurofighter has maintained a presence in Aero India both in 2013 and 2015, and would love to win the contract from its French rival. But another contender has emerged — one with strong ties to India and a desire to spite the French.

Red Dawn

Russia has begun a very public campaign to convince Indian officials that Moscow has a better solution on the table.

Sergei Goreslavsky, deputy director of Russia's arms export agency Rosoboronexport, told the RIA Novosti news agency on Feb. 16 that "if [India] needs additional Su-30MKI fighters, then we are ready to work out such an agreement," stressing that New Delhi need only ask.

Goreslavsky is the head of Russia's delegation to the Aero India 2015 air show, which was held last week in Bangalore.

India already operates a large fleet of Sukhoi Su-30 fighters, some of which have been locally produced by HAL. That argument was pushed by Yuri Slyusar, the recently appointed head of the state-owned United Aircraft Corporation, during a Feb. 19 appearance in Bangalore.

"Which aircraft would better suit the needs of the customer? Our obvious competitive advantage is that India is already making these aircraft right here, right now," Slyusar said. "The factories have been built, the technology debugged, the documents transferred, the pilots, engineers and technicians have been trained."

Russia's RSK MiG has also announced plans to throw its hat in the ring with an upgraded version of its developmental MiG-35 if India rejects the Rafale and reopens the tender.

"We have every chance to compete [for the contract]," RIA Novosti quoted MiG chief Sergei Korotkov as saying at Aero India on Feb. 18. "We have not lost hope that a future tender or competition will be announced."

Ruslan Pukhov, director of the Center for the Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, a Moscow-based defense think tank, said Russia has been lobbying for some time for India to ax the Rafale contract.

"Russia has tried its best to explain to India, as the Eurofighter people have, that it is completely senseless to buy a platform designed in the 1980s for such a huge amount of money," Pukhov said, "especially since the full fleet won't be operational for, let's say, 10 years."

For the money India would spend on Rafale, it could buy from a mature product that they already know how to maintain and operate, Pukhov argued, adding that its combat capability surpasses that of any other aircraft in India's Air Force.

Pukhov, who is also a member of the Defense Ministry's public advisory board, didn't discount that Russia may be working further behind the scenes to influence the situation in Moscow's favor, but stressed the cause is Dassault's inexperience with exporting the Rafale.

"This is totally Russian," François Lureau of consultancy EuroFLconsult and former head of the French procurement office. Until a contract is signed, he said, the Indian deal is seen to be open to competition and the Russians will push the message of French unreliability.

Aboulafia noted that the Russian position is fairly strong, given its industrial presence in India.

"You're looking at two groups who could each decide to walk away," he said of Dassault and the Indian MoD. "India says it loves the Rafale, but has a production line for the cheaper Sukhoi already in India. And while it would be a transformative sale for Dassault, they are essentially telling India it is asking for the impossible."

The strength of Dassault's position depends on whether the Egyptian sale represents a major change in the fortunes of the jet — Aboulafia describes its history as "25 years of trying and multiple defeats snatched from the jaws of victory" — or if the sale was a very specific case.

The financing on the Egyptian sale, which may involve gulf nations and France providing very favorable terms to Egypt, could end up meaning the sale is a one off, rather than the start of a trend for the jet.

On the other hand, the Rafale is still alive in three major competitions in the gulf region. There is a potential agreement with Qatar, in discussion for as many as 36 jets, as well as a potential 60-ship sale to the United Arab Emirates and a smaller contest in Kuwait.

Landing any of those deals could boost Dassault's negotiating strength with India, or at least embolden the company to cut its losses.

Mistral Fallout?

Meanwhile, Russia's state-run media outlets last week were littered with statements from officials across Russia's defense industry boasting Russia's proven track record of technology transfer and product delivery.

These comments have been juxtaposed against France's refusal to deliver the first of two French-built Mistral-class amphibious assault carriers to the Russian Navy last year.

Under international pressure, France decided not to hand over the ship as a result of Russia's role in the crisis in Ukraine. The move greatly angered Russia, which has derided France as an unreliable business partner since.

Dmitry Shugaev, deputy director for international affairs at state defense holding Rostec, also pinned the Rafale's troubles on France's reluctance to guarantee the jets in comments carried by the state-run TASS news agency on Feb. 16.

Shugaev said France's failure to deliver the Mistral could also be one of the reasons India has expressed concerns over the deal.

The sentiment in Russia is that snatching the contract, or at least getting India to commit to more Su-30s while it works through its problems with Dassault, would provide some measure of solace in the wake of the scorned Mistral delivery.

Russian officials and pundits have gone out of their way in recent months to cast France as an unreliable trading partner, a supplier that may cancel deals at the last minute in accordance with the political whims of its puppet masters in DC, and have promised to pursue legal damages if Paris does not go through with the delivery.

The fact that Russia is pushing the Mistral issue as a marketing tool does not come as a surprise in Paris.

But a Russian message of the risk of a potential French embargo does not stand up to scrutiny because there would be a technology transfer to India that would deliver "industrial autonomy" on the Rafale, Lureau said.

French Senator Daniel Rainer, who sits on the defense committee, said Russia is using the Mistral as a "commercial argument of circumstance." The circumstance is the suspension of the warship and the commercial interest is the Indian fighter contest.

Dassault, the Direction Générale de l'Armement procurement office and Defense Ministry are well aware of the Russian lobbying effort in India, he said.

EDIT I had to stop here -- I didn't know about 10000 characters limit ... anyway the source:

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[A Bar Brother]

So the F-22 has far superior performance at altitude, and your little ITR vs STR is simply not true, in order to have superior STR at a given speed and altitude??? you must start out with a much higher ITR. Since the Typhoon is rated at 9gs positive, and the Raptor's G rating is classified, and it has TVC it is very safe to assume the Raptor is able to achieve a much faster pitch transition at 35,000 ft to 65,000 ft altitudes, where the Raptor lives, while the Eurofighter is very good at altitude, the TVC of the Raptor enhances greatly the initial turn in, that it will pull 6Gs sustained at 50,000 ft, tells you that without much better powerplants that the fifth gens in development will still fall short in the very high altitude performance arena of the Raptors excellent turn rates???

The difference should be in the F-22's favor, but it shouldn't be that great. I mean if you consider some aspects, the F-22 and EF are more closer to each other than other jets.

For example, when the F-15 wants to climb to altitude, it generally climbs up to above 30000 feet, then go into a dive before climbing up again. But the F-22 and EF are known to climb up to 50000 feet and higher without have to initiate a dive. While we have very little data to go with either aircraft, the overall capabilities are quite similar in certain regimes based on open source information.

We don't know much about the engines either. Eurojet claims their engine to be 5th gen as well. And the EJ200 provides greater thrust to weight compared to the F119.

So the F-22 has far superior performance at altitude, and your little ITR vs STR is simply not true, in order to have superior STR at a given speed and altitude??? you must start out with a much higher ITR.

The difference between ITR and STR for different airframes should also be taken into consideration. For example, the difference between the Flanker's turn rate is 8 deg/s between ITR and STR at sea level. However, the difference between the two for the F-15 is very small, around 4-5 deg/sec.

The F-16 has terrible ITR compared to its STR in all regimes.

Your American's comment is number 1 not true, and number 2 is really another cheap shot??

It is generally accepted that European capabilities are underestimated by the Pentagon, let alone civilian analysts. One reason why the navy saw the Gotland case. It was no cheap shot.

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One contact of mine within the anti-submarine community said that the Gotland was the single biggest eye opener of their career, the little Swedish sub was "so silent it literally did not exist to our sensors."

The Europeans do that a lot. And the Gotland wasn't even the best Europe had to offer at the time.

 

[Air Force Brat]

So the F-22 has far superior performance at altitude, and your little ITR vs STR is simply not true, in order to have superior STR at a given speed and altitude??? you must start out with a much higher ITR. Since the Typhoon is rated at 9gs positive, and the Raptor's G rating is classified, and it has TVC it is very safe to assume the Raptor is able to achieve a much faster pitch transition at 35,000 ft to 65,000 ft altitudes, where the Raptor lives, while the Eurofighter is very good at altitude, the TVC of the Raptor enhances greatly the initial turn in, that it will pull 6Gs sustained at 50,000 ft, tells you that without much better powerplants that the fifth gens in development will still fall short in the very high altitude performance arena of the Raptors excellent turn rates???
Your American's comment is number 1 not true, and number 2 is really another cheap shot??

If you watch Mirage's video that he posted today you will note that T-50 basically Pivots around its vertical axis in the "rudder turn" the aircraft is very slow, and the sink rate is likely 2,000 to 6,000 fpm depending on how far you allow the airspeed to decay, it is basically a flat spin, the nose of the aircraft maintained in a level attitude by the deflection of the OVT to prevent the nose from "falling through" the horizontal. Without OVT the nose would drop below the horizon, continuing to hold pro-spin rudder/OVT will not allow the aircraft to gain enough forward speed to break the "aerodynamic stall". In an unintentional stall/spin you would zero thrust the engine, allow the nose to "fall through" by apply full forward stick and full opposite rudder. Once the spin has stopped and the aircraft nose is dropping you would apply power and once flying speed was attained??? you would ease back on the stick in order to prevent a "secondary stall"...

That business of this happening at 250-600 knots, without any loss of airspeed??? is real nonsense, and is either a mistranslation on the part of the reporter or the person recording the events.
Holding the nose up with OVT does maintain a level attitude, also allows the aircraft to increase the rpm of the spin, slow, or stop it at will. To wit the 3D OVT is a very usefull tool for flying a nice airshow, in practicality the Raptors 2D TVC allows full pitch and allows aircraft to make a turn in the same manner, as well as the option to hold the nose level, or pitch up or down??? TVC is very neat for airshows, and does have an application in air combat maneuvering!

 

[A Bar Brother]

In an unintentional stall/spin you would zero thrust the engine, allow the nose to "fall through" by apply full forward stick and full opposite rudder. Once the spin has stopped and the aircraft nose is dropping you would apply power and once flying speed was attained??? you would ease back on the stick in order to prevent a "secondary stall"...

Flat spin on a non-TVC aircraft is very different from the controlled spin of a TVC aircraft. I mean, you don't have to spin more than once or sink. The thrust is no longer in a straight line to the nose with TVC. So the thrust is not zero, it is downward. Hence it is not the generally accepted flat spin, hence why I didn't want to use the term in the first place, when I described it.

A Youtube video was released with Col Ternof saying a TVC aircraft loses altitude while vectoring. An IAF pilot was quoted saying the MKI will lose altitude while vectoring only if the pilot wants it to.

During a high speed stall, an aircraft goes through uncontrollable amount of yawing before it stalls. A TVC works to control the yawing. Now, if the yawing movement is under the pilot's control, he should be able to make greater use of it, even in combat.

Nobody said anything about using such a maneuver at sea level where air show maneuvers happen. Although the speed is debatable, the ability of a TVC aircraft to perform unique yaw maneuvers is not.

That business of this happening at 250-600 knots, without any loss of airspeed??? is real nonsense, and is either a mistranslation on the part of the reporter or the person recording the events.

600 Knots is too much. The speed I mentioned was 300 knots. And let's not take "no loss of airspeed" literally.

 

[Jeff Head]

600 Knots is too much. The speed I mentioned was 300 knots. And let's not take "no loss of airspeed" literally.

You said 600 Kmph in the beginning...and you said so very clearly.

No loss of airspeed can only be taken literally. It means no...zero...de nada.

if you mean something different you should say it.

For example, "Little loss of airspeed," "negligible loss," etc.

As it is....this ends now.

GET BACK ON TOPIC.

This has been stated over and over, and by multiple moderators, particularly to you ABB.

Just step back from those earlier statements. Those claims have been shown to be completely wrong and not credible. You should stop drawing any attention to it. Let it be and do not respond regarding them any more.

I do not mean this as an insult, just as an apt description of what is happening with this . Please, don't fall into the trap of being..."like a dog returning to its vomit."

I am closing this thread for one week.

DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS MODERATION

 

[Jura The idiot]

I think it's pretty normal to post rumors in this thread so I found in a Russian newspapers

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only twelve T-50s would be ordered until 2020
(instead of 52 -- as the article says was the original plan -- or 60 according to the discussion on a Russian forum

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where numerous theories of what's going on can be found

 

[Air Force Brat]

I think it's pretty normal to post rumors in this thread so I found in a Russian newspapers

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

only twelve T-50s would be ordered until 2020
(instead of 52 -- as the article says was the original plan -- or 60 according to the discussion on a Russian forum

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

where numerous theories of what's going on can be found

I am sure there will be some who vehemently disagree, but most of us might also find 52 to 60 being extremely generous capability? The other question is will India also be in the market?? I can well see Russia building 12 for themselves and selling 12 to India, so my own expectation would be 12 to 24???

This current crisis of not enough fighter aircraft in India? needs to be addressed sooner, rather than later?? India has indicated a desire to move the schedule up and to take the 2nd iteration of PAK-FA in the interim, this would be advantageous to both the Russians and the Indians, and the Russians would love to sell the Su-35 to India and take that Rafael cash home with them??

Where this goes is anybody's guess??? but the opportunity is ripe to do something helpful for both teams??? the French are defensive at the moment??? IMHO???? but hey, this whole sweet deal isn't done until somebody starts writing checks and building airplanes?

 

[Jura The idiot]

... but hey, this whole sweet deal isn't done until somebody starts writing checks and building airplanes?

AFB, what a pity you don't know the Russian language

 

[Air Force Brat]

AFB, what a pity you don't know the Russian language

It really is Jura, and I admire you gents who have taken the time to study and learn it?? Russian translates very poorly into English, the absolute locked down translation of the English language, has a very poor ability to be adapted to the more "laissez faire" attitude of the Russians, where you say one thing and mean something as more or less is often mis-interpreted by English Speakers as somehow "absolut"??? I can get very little from the Russian, but after all these years of sitting on the sidelines and watching our little "Bolschoi Ballet"?? I do get a sense of the meaning and timing, and that is all important???

Now Chinese??? I am completely flummoxed there???? Emperor XI's lockdown on the Chinese people and their grand entrance into the world at large has been such a heart-ache to the Air Force Brat, I am most disheartened for some of my Chinese friends on SDF, so many doors have been closed??? oh my

 

[b787]