Russian Su-57 Aircraft Thread (PAK-FA and IAF FGFA)

[Anlsvrthng]

Doesn’t matter. You keep trying to drag it into a Su57 v F35. That is outside the point. Besides in many engagements the advantage isn’t Kinetics using the ability’s of the fighter not just kinetics but avionics.
Oh and the engines of SU57 have not appeared yet beyond current flanker series types


Of course but they only buy for a year or two.
However in this case they have been languishing. Despite having been unveiled earlier the SU57 only numbers a dozen units well the J20 is double. Buying new SU35 and Mig35 doesn’t mean that they will match those numbers with SU57.

Current PROJECTIONS.
And optimistic ones at that. You harp on western fighters price tags but those are solid data not sales numbers.

No it’s a long running joke by the Russians, every year they announce the same new system Carrier/Tank/Fighter it’s just a few years away and then as the date comes close. They suddenly announce it again farther in the Future.

Again some how America’s stealth is bogus but Russian stealth is the real deal? Moving the goal posts.

Start to think in Russian military doctrine, and the role of Su-57 in it.

The Russian military budget has three elements .
priority 1 Self defence and strategic nuclear systems

Including strategic ICBMs and SLBMs , the carriers ( Borei class) , sensor systems ( NEBO radar family, Arctic sensor network ) , SAM systems, modernisation of fighters MBTs, missile systems , helicopters.​

Priority 2 dual use systems and power projection

Yassen class, surface ships, transport planes, refuelling planes​

Priority 3, cost imposing systems.

Poseidon, Bulsevik ( that nuclear powered missile) , T-14 MBT , Zircon, manoeuvrable RVs and Su-57 ​

The priority 1 items receive the best part of the budget, they have strict schedule, and if they late then receive extra budget, they try to make the slips as small as possible.

Now, the priority 3 items receive a small portion of budget, if priority 1 has any extra budget requirement then the money withdrawn from Priority 3 .
There is no extra money spent on those programs, because the only reason of the existence of them is to force any adversary to spend way more money ( preferable 1:10) than the cost of the system. Spending more than budgeted onto them defeating the exact reason of they existence.

The Su-57 exist because the Russian military mathematicians calculated that every 1 % of military budget spent onto Su-57 has to be matched by 10% of budget spend by the USA/France / UK /China ect. onto VHF,S band radars, integrated radar systems, multi sensor fighter jets, new missiles and SAMs and so on. Same game like Reagan's star wars program.

So, if the 170 billion rouble will be insufficient then they will just lengthen the procurement time , or decrease the number of planes , or anything else that doesn't require to touch the priority 1 and 2 items.

And this is the reason why Turkey need so badly a multi spectra SAM system.
USA don't want to sell anything that restrict the usability of stealth planes (and hasn't got usable system at the moment) , and Turkey will face the USA , Israel and Russia threat (maybe Saudi, or even Iran ) , that can't be seen by X band radars.
So, for them the S400 become prioirty 1, the F35 priority 3(maybe 2 )

 

[gelgoog]

I see a lot of mistaken beliefs here.

Russia does not have 12x Su-57s. Russia has 10x flying prototypes which are used for testing various features of Su-57s design. Some prototypes are for testing the avionics, others for testing the engines, others for testing the sensors, etc. Only the last built prototype, (T-50-11 aka 511) is supposed to be in a serial production configuration. They are not Su-57s same way the YF-22 was not an F-22. So next time someone complains about lack of this or that in the prototypes or whatever, just remember that. These are not production aircraft. They are test articles.

The first serial produced Su-57 to be delivered to the Russian Air Force is being manufactured right now. It is supposed to be delivered this year. With another one delivered next year. Both will have the first generation engines. Which, contrary to what some say, are not the Su-35s (117S) engines but higher performance engines (117) with a similar base design. Just for comparison the Su-35s 117S has 142kN thrust and the Su-57s 117 has 147kN thrust. The 117S weighs 1604 kg and the 117 weighs 1420 kg. The 117S has 9.04:1 T/W, the 117 has 10.5:1 T/W. I repeat it is not the same engine.

After those first two years thirteen more Su-57s were supposed to be produced. This was the original order.
Production was expected to be slow and limited, not for financial reasons, but because the airplane was not considered to be in a mature state at a time the Su-35 and Su-30SM met and exceeded both current and near future Russian Air Force requirements.

This year, the program was reevaluated. The avionics were completed late last year. So Putin this year visited the production plant KnAAZ at Amur, where both the Su-35 and Su-57 are produced, for an inspection and announced that the Russian government will increase the Su-57 order to 76 aircraft, to be delivered until 2028. The order is supposed to be signed on paper at the MAKS 2019 airshow which is to be hosted in Moscow 27 August-1 September this year.

At the same time the Russian Air Force is not interested in increasing the production rate significantly until the second stage engines are available and in production. The second stage engines began testing on a flying platform (T-50-2 aka 052) on December 5, 2017. The second stage, izdeliye 30, engines are to have 176kN thrust and be more reliable and fuel efficient. These engines will make the Su-57 a true 5th gen aircraft.
If the second stage engines follow the typical 5 year development period for such an article they should enter production around 2022-2023.

As with any Russian arms program piece of equipment the Su-57 is periodically reevaluated and production numbers may be adjusted again in the future.
Typically the way this works in modern Russian arms programs is the budget is preset at a given funding level and funds are reallocated according to program performance, military requirements, etc. So say the government decides to cancel further orders of a certain weapon system and reallocates the funds to another weapon system. Or they negotiate cost cuts on a weapons system and reallocate the leftover funds to buy some other weapon system or more units of the same.

What this expanded order brings is basically more stability for the builders of the aircraft so they can invest on expanding the production facilities for the Su-57 and its components. It is also a vote of confidence of sorts by the government on the maturity of the project.

This is not like the F-22 or F-35 programs where they typically put the cart before the horse and start

 

[Air Force Brat]

I see a lot of mistaken beliefs here.

Russia does not have 12x Su-57s. Russia has 10x flying prototypes which are used for testing various features of Su-57s design. Some prototypes are for testing the avionics, others for testing the engines, others for testing the sensors, etc. Only the last built prototype, (T-50-11 aka 511) is supposed to be in a serial production configuration. They are not Su-57s same way the YF-22 was not an F-22. So next time someone complains about lack of this or that in the prototypes or whatever, just remember that. These are not production aircraft. They are test articles.

The first serial produced Su-57 to be delivered to the Russian Air Force is being manufactured right now. It is supposed to be delivered this year. With another one delivered next year. Both will have the first generation engines. Which, contrary to what some say, are not the Su-35s (117S) engines but higher performance engines (117) with a similar base design. Just for comparison the Su-35s 117S has 142kN thrust and the Su-57s 117 has 147kN thrust. The 117S weighs 1604 kg and the 117 weighs 1420 kg. The 117S has 9.04:1 T/W, the 117 has 10.5:1 T/W. I repeat it is not the same engine.

After those first two years thirteen more Su-57s were supposed to be produced. This was the original order.
Production was expected to be slow and limited, not for financial reasons, but because the airplane was not considered to be in a mature state at a time the Su-35 and Su-30SM met and exceeded both current and near future Russian Air Force requirements.

This year, the program was reevaluated. The avionics were completed late last year. So Putin this year visited the production plant KnAAZ at Amur, where both the Su-35 and Su-57 are produced, for an inspection and announced that the Russian government will increase the Su-57 order to 76 aircraft, to be delivered until 2028. The order is supposed to be signed on paper at the MAKS 2019 airshow which is to be hosted in Moscow 27 August-1 September this year.

At the same time the Russian Air Force is not interested in increasing the production rate significantly until the second stage engines are available and in production. The second stage engines began testing on a flying platform (T-50-2 aka 052) on December 5, 2017. The second stage, izdeliye 30, engines are to have 176kN thrust and be more reliable and fuel efficient. These engines will make the Su-57 a true 5th gen aircraft.
If the second stage engines follow the typical 5 year development period for such an article they should enter production around 2022-2023.

As with any Russian arms program piece of equipment the Su-57 is periodically reevaluated and production numbers may be adjusted again in the future.
Typically the way this works in modern Russian arms programs is the budget is preset at a given funding level and funds are reallocated according to program performance, military requirements, etc. So say the government decides to cancel further orders of a certain weapon system and reallocates the funds to another weapon system. Or they negotiate cost cuts on a weapons system and reallocate the leftover funds to buy some other weapon system or more units of the same.

What this expanded order brings is basically more stability for the builders of the aircraft so they can invest on expanding the production facilities for the Su-57 and its components. It is also a vote of confidence of sorts by the government on the maturity of the project.

This is not like the F-22 or F-35 programs where they typically put the cart before the horse and start

I was being extremely generous when I offered the Russians had 10-12 airworthy aircraft my friend, and 10 flying prototypes are indeed progress, but as you note they have no real utility other than as test articles....

I believe Master Siege was serious when he asked us to leave the F-22, F-35 out of this thread Bub.....

 

[Brumby]

Well will see if it happens or not. Independently of the Indians wanting it or not Russia will need a dual seater for bombing missions.
The modification should be more or less trivial. I expect it to happen after the 2nd stage engines become available.
Unless if for some reason they develop some other platform to be the dual seater bomber. The MiG-41 i.e. PAK-DP is a possible candidate.
If its mission profile is anything like the MiG-31s it will need a dedicate weapons operator and a larger payload bay than the Su-57.

A lot of people seem to think the only point of the Su-57 is the stealth. Well it is not. It has a better radar, more pilot assists, and better maneuverability. Yes, unlike with the F-35, the kinematic performance of the Su-57 will be better than that of its predecessor. So no, it does not make any sense to continue building the Su-35 in my opinion.

Actually the predominant Western view on 5th generation battlespace is information warfare and not stealth, maneuverability or speed. It is the non Western view that is somewhat fixated with thrust vectoring and super cruise. We keep on coming back to the SU-57 engine because there is nothing else that is grounded on facts that we can talk about. There is no update on the SU-57 AESA development nor its integrated suite of avionics. The SU-57 that we know of is essentially a SU-35 with some basic VLO features thrown in. Russia to-date has no established track record of producing an airborne fighter AESA radar and so is questionable whether real progress has been made. Until we see some tangible evidence, any claims to progress are mainly speculative.
Currently if the SU-57 proceeds with Putin's latest plan we have no idea what starting configuration we are even staring at especially given the plan to remove some features to save on production cost.

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

The last report we had on avionics of SU57 was talking about the data capability of the system, not radar or IRST. But a mention of a Data line and some degree of sensor fusion.

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Mostly it mentions systems management and diagnostic.

 

[Brumby]

The most recent update I have seen on the SU-57 testing is from an AWST article dated Sep 4, 2018 written by Piotr Butowski. In it, the SU-57 is currently undergoing stage 2 testing which is primarily associated with mission systems and armaments with planned completion in 2019. Based on this article, it would suggest to me that the SU-57 is very much still in testing phase. Relevant portion of the article is provided below :

But the true reasons for the reduction of planned Su-57 purchases can be traced to the technical shortcomings of its first version.

More than eight years have passed since the T-50’s Jan. 29, 2010, first flight from Komsomolsk-on-Amur in the Far East. Ten flying prototypes are currently undergoing tests. According to Sukhoi, “2,050 test flights were made under the PAK FA program” by Dec. 31, 2017.

In addition to the trials at industry’s test center in Zhukovsky, the T-50 prototypes have been undergoing an evaluation conducted by military pilots at the defense ministry’s test center at Akhtubinsk since 2014. The main focus of the trials at Akhtubinsk is evaluation of the fighter’s armament.

Nobody in Russia would talk openly about the problems of the Su-57 program. However, signs of trouble abound. After years of testing, largely without financial restrictions, the aircraft completed the so-called “first stage of state evaluation” only in late 2017. That stage is, in fact, not a very advanced level of testing: It concludes with the acceptance of the aircraft as a flying vehicle. Only the completion of the second stage, when mission systems and armaments are tested, allows the aircraft to officially enter the inventory. According to Sukhoi: “In 2018, the trials are continued under the second stage of state evaluation, with planned completion in 2019.”

To complicate matters, the aircraft was redesigned during that stage. Five aircraft made since 2016 differ from the earlier aircraft; the new airframe has a reinforced inner structure. The aft fuselage section (housing the electronic warfare equipment) was made longer, and the circumferences of the aft lower fuselage, some doors and hatches, as well as wingtips have been modified. Fifteen first-production aircraft will be made in that configuration.

However, the aircraft is subsequently undergoing another upgrade—retrofitting with new-generation Izdeliye (product) 30 engines. On Dec. 5, 2017, the T50-2LL (Letayushchaya Laboratoriya, flying testbed), with the port engine replaced by a prototype of the Izdeliye 30, performed its first flight. Krivoruchko says Russia’s defense ministry expects deliveries of airplanes with new engines in 2023.

The current AL-41F-1 (Izdeliye 117) engine for the Su-57 is a deep modernization of the fourth-generation AL-31F for the Flanker fighter family, described as a “generation 5-minus” by Evgeniy Marchukov, the aircraft’s designer general. The Izdeliye 30, classified by Marchukov as a “generation 5-plus,” offers more thrust, lighter weight, a smaller number of elements and lower operating costs. The developer says the new engine will be “17-18% more effective.” If it refers to full thrust, the new Izdeliye 30 engine should provide 17 tons, compared to 14.5 tons for AL-41F-1. The engine’s dry weight is estimated at 1,450 kg (3,200 lb.), compared to 1,600 kg for AL-41F-1. Thanks to glass-fiber plastic inlet guide vanes, the new engine fan is planned to have much a smaller radar cross-section in the front view.

 

[Anlsvrthng]

Actually the predominant Western view on 5th generation battlespace is information warfare and not stealth, maneuverability or speed. It is the non Western view that is somewhat fixated with thrust vectoring and super cruise. We keep on coming back to the SU-57 engine because there is nothing else that is grounded on facts that we can talk about. There is no update on the SU-57 AESA development nor its integrated suite of avionics. The SU-57 that we know of is essentially a SU-35 with some basic VLO features thrown in. Russia to-date has no established track record of producing an airborne fighter AESA radar and so is questionable whether real progress has been made. Until we see some tangible evidence, any claims to progress are mainly speculative.
Currently if the SU-57 proceeds with Putin's latest plan we have no idea what starting configuration we are even staring at especially given the plan to remove some features to save on production cost.

The "information warfare", sensor fusion and so on is the backbone of Soviet military doctrine since the 40s.

 

[Inst]

It's an interesting point you make about stealth fighter vs stealth fighter combat.

And how this changes the optimal tactical strategy (for a stealth fighter) from "BVR launch + WVR dogfighting" to "shoot and scoot" against high-value targets.

But it's high value targets which have UHF frequency radars which can detect opposing stealth fighters, possibly with a weapons grade track that it can pass to a shooter.

Anyway, it means even more effort should be made on destroying opposing stealth fighters on the ground before they take off.
But when a counter-air mission is required, it argues for a smaller stealth fighter (for attritional WVR combat) which is cheaper and which also has a smaller IR signature.

My perspective is that if the Russians can deliver the Su-57 at the price points they've promised (50-80 million), the Su-57 can provide an attritional adjunct for the J-20, alongside later developments of the J-31 model. The J-20 is expensive, the Su-57 is cheap, the Su-57 gets killed in droves (and kills in droves), the J-20 ends up being covered by Su-57s and J-31 developments in WVR.

One other argument for interception is the weak weapons bay of the J-20. It has roughly the same weapons bay capacity as the F-35, despite being a more expensive heavyweight fighter. Even if the price is eventually reduced, PPP means that the J-20 is more expensive than the F-35. The J-20 wants to unload its weapons bay as soon as possible, hit afterburners to get out of NEZ / effective range ASAP, then supercruise home to reload another salvo of missiles.

 

[AndrewS]

My perspective is that if the Russians can deliver the Su-57 at the price points they've promised (50-80 million), the Su-57 can provide an attritional adjunct for the J-20, alongside later developments of the J-31 model. The J-20 is expensive, the Su-57 is cheap, the Su-57 gets killed in droves (and kills in droves), the J-20 ends up being covered by Su-57s and J-31 developments in WVR.

One other argument for interception is the weak weapons bay of the J-20. It has roughly the same weapons bay capacity as the F-35, despite being a more expensive heavyweight fighter. Even if the price is eventually reduced, PPP means that the J-20 is more expensive than the F-35. The J-20 wants to unload its weapons bay as soon as possible, hit afterburners to get out of NEZ / effective range ASAP, then supercruise home to reload another salvo of missiles.

On the Su-57, is it stealthy enough to get into WVR of a F-35 or F-22?

In any case, trying to go the attrition route against thousands of F-35s is a losing proposition.

It's better to spend most resources on hitting the air bases they operate from. And if those airbases are distant, then on more J-20s to hit the vulnerable tankers those F-35s rely on.

Yup, every stealth fighter should be operating as a sniper and egressing, because it is way less risky than getting into WVR.

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

My perspective is that if the Russians can deliver the Su-57 at the price points they've promised (50-80 million), the Su-57 can provide an attritional adjunct for the J-20, alongside later developments of the J-31 model. The J-20 is expensive, the Su-57 is cheap, the Su-57 gets killed in droves (and kills in droves), the J-20 ends up being covered by Su-57s and J-31 developments in WVR.

that depends on a GIANT IF. The Problem for them is how they get to that price point. If they got hundreds and hundreds of orders okay. I mean they would probably have to match F35 Orders to get that price point. Otherwise it’s batteries not included. Where the Plane comes off the boat the pilot starts to inspect and it’s just a empty shell only good for mounting at the gate.

One other argument for interception is the weak weapons bay of the J-20. It has roughly the same weapons bay capacity as the F-35, despite being a more expensive heavyweight fighter. Even if the price is eventually reduced, PPP means that the J-20 is more expensive than the F-35. The J-20 wants to unload its weapons bay as soon as possible, hit afterburners to get out of NEZ / effective range ASAP, then supercruise home to reload another salvo of missiles.

in the main bay yes with side bay it out numbers current batch F35 in terms of air to air internal carry. Until A and C models get the 6 shooter refit. The main issue though isn’t the size of the bay it’s the size of the weapons. F22 went up in Missile load when the US introduced more compact Weapons.

Attrition isn’t a way to survive conflict. Training pilots to take out as many enemy as they can before they get shot down is going to cost both aircraft and pilots lives.

On the Su-57, is it stealthy enough to get into WVR of a F-35 or F-22?

doubtful. I mean VLO vs VLO the first Problem is finding the other guy. It’s like a Ninja fight in the dark and they are both blind.

In any case, trying to go the attrition route against thousands of F-35s is a losing proposition.

Attrition route is generally a loosing prospect in all cases.

It's better to spend most resources on hitting the air bases they operate from. And if those airbases are distant, then on more J-20s to hit the vulnerable tankers those F-35s rely on.

That’s the modern mindset it seems. However that itself may not be a long term option. As VLO tech gets expanded beyond the Kinetic and recon end. The MQ25 already is clearly a VLO and it shows the next potential step.

Yup, every stealth fighter should be operating as a sniper and egressing, because it is way less risky than getting into WVR.

BVR was intended to ensure a higher rate of return. Kill the enemy before he kills you. VLO technology has pushed that out of the options of the adversary. Very long range Air to Air missiles tried to buy that back by killing the support system of that. Tankers and AEW. But for the better bullet a better armor.