Russian Su-57 Aircraft Thread (PAK-FA and IAF FGFA)

TerraN_EmpirE

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
gelgoog said:
Well will see if it happens or not. Independently of the Indians wanting it or not Russia will need a dual seater for bombing missions.
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A two seater I don’t think would make enough of a difference to justify it. If anything the additional weight would reduce payload for the extra chair and would be better served by a flying wing.
The modification should be more or less trivial. I expect it to happen after the 2nd stage engines become available.
Unless if for some reason they develop some other platform to be the dual seater bomber. The MiG-41 i.e. PAK-DP is a possible candidate.
If its mission profile is anything like the MiG-31s it will need a dedicate weapons operator and a larger payload bay than the Su-57.
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Old thinking. The dedicated weapons operator was to operate the radar system of the fighter. This is why fighters like the F14, F4, MiG 23, they all had back seaters as standard as the radars of the time demanded special attention.
Mig 41 and PAK Da at this point seem vaper Ware.
A lot of people seem to think the only point of the Su-57 is the stealth. Well it is not. It has a better radar, more pilot assists, and better maneuverability. Yes, unlike with the F-35, the kinematic performance of the Su-57 will be better than that of its predecessor. So no, it does not make any sense to continue building the Su-35 in my opinion.
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The kenetic performance of Flanker series is impressive, but without a G suit it’s beyond a normal human to take. Even with a G suit pilots at at the Human limits of the performance envelope. And even the Aircraft is at the edge of its sustainable G levels.

The only reason that makes any sense to me for stripping the RAM coatings from a SU57 production is to sell as a “Monkey model”.
If you intend to sell to a nation who is incapable of maintaining the fighter’s maintenance costs.
Performance wise porting the radar and avionics into a Flanker Model would still be able to perform as well as any other 4.5 gen fighter.
Viktor Jav said:
Assuming if Russia can scrap together the rubles for it. For a country as large as Russia it will need at least hundreds if not thousands of fighters to properly patrol its borders, so there is a place for 4th gen fighters to conduct peacetime air patrols and/or local air defense where it can leverage ground based radar and EW systems to compensate for it's own lack of stealth and radar.
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It’s not just the Rubles it’s the pilots. Russia is a vast nation with a dwindling population.
Unlike in the Second World War Russia doesn’t have the vast masses to throw into a conflict. The function of the MiG 31 and MiG 25 before it were to hunt American bombers B70 that never happened and B1. It’s aim was then and now to extend the reach of Russian Air power into the vast unpopulated regions.
 
G

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Russia has a reasonable amount of relatively modern fighters as is.
Compare with other European nations. France has 175 Rafale, and the UK has 142 Eurofighter Typhoons.
Russia has 78 Su-35, 92 Su-30SM, 20 Su-30M2, 12 Su-27SM3, 70 Su-27SM, 225 Su-27. The Su-27s will be upgraded to Su-27SM3 standards.
Also 122 Su-34s.

The problem is the tip of the spear, so to speak, and the Su-57 is supposed to fix that. I expect 200+ Su-57s to be built of several types.

The MiG-31 was not made just to hunt bombers. It was also made to intercept cruise missiles. It is a fast aircraft which can be quickly deployed across the vast expanses of Russia to cover gaps in air defense. There have been programs of similar fighter classes since the Soviet Union in late 1950s. Heck you could say it comes from the idea of the high-altitude interceptor from WW2 like the MiG-3. The idea is always the same. The largest missiles, the largest radar, on the fastest aircraft, the MiG-41 will be no different. Similar to a tank, you need two pilots. Because it is supposed to operate in hunter-killer mode. Even if you add automated assists a single pilot will be overloaded especially in a long range mission. I think.
Because of its specifications it will also be suitable for a high-speed medium bomber role.

How old is the SR-71 now? It basically added some bypass tubes and a moveable shock cone to do its magic. The Russians also have had that kind of technology for decades. The MiG-21 had a moveable shock cone.

Everyone will be working on next generation engines for the 6th gens. I expect the Russians to simplify their transition by simply picking up the basic Izd. 30 engine design and adding side ducts to make it Mach 3+ capable.
 
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TerraN_EmpirE

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
The Push is Hypersonic weapons not Hypersonic sixth gen. SR71is Long retired from service and was never shot down despite existing in service the same time as both Mig 25 and Mig31.
 
Brumby

Brumby

Major
Since the F-117 shoot down had been brought up a number of times, it is appropriate in my view to put in perspective the question of VLO on that day.

According to Serbian sources, both P-18 and P-15 radars were attempting to track the F-117 on that day. The P-18 radar operating in VHF frequencies managed to first detect the F-117 at about 50-60 kms and then developed a stable track from 25 km. It should be noted that initial detection distance is rather meaningless until after the fact when a meaningful track is established or else they are simply noise from clutter. According to Wiki, the P-18 has a detection range out to 250 km and so the F-117 was effective even against VHF until 50 kms. The P-15 operating in UHF was simply ineffective against the F-117. This speaks volume concerning the effectiveness of lower frequencies band against VLO platform. As the F-117 shoot down demonstrated, VLO delivers significant advantage even against lower frequencies band.

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P-18 radar - Operating frequency VHF with a range of 250 km
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P-15 radar - Operating frequency UHF with a range of 150 km
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According to Serbian accounts, the P-18 only had a clear track on the F-117 at around 25 kms when the frequency settings was manually lowered to 150 MHZ (mid band of VHF range). This means the idea of UHF and L band frequencies being meaningfully able to detect VLO at distance is simply not supported by the F117 shoot down. It should be noted that the F-117 did not have RWR nor ESM protection. This effectively was a clean encounter without the distortion arising from ECM. As a general rule of thumb, effective jamming objective is to lower detection range by 50 %. Any objective analysis of the F-117 situation will easily draw the conclusion that VLO worked as advertised. The shootdown was a combination of luck, sloppy route planning and lack of ESM support on that day.

It is a conclusion drawn by both China and Russia by the pursuance of their respective VLO programs.

That said, let's turn back to the SU-57 and the question of VLO as exhibited by its airframe. It is an establish fact that the primary factor in lowering RCS is through the shaping of the airframe. RAM while important is secondary as its incremental benefit while helpful is rather limited. Collectively, the shaping, RAM and precision engineering finishing helps to define the final RCS profile. In the case of the F-35, threat awareness through its sensor fusion further helps it to ingress and egress in a flight profile that further reduces its RF signature. While it is generally known that the F-22 has a -40dB vs the F-35 -30 dB, the F-35 supposedly is able to generate a lower RF signature operationally due to its more advanced sensor fusion. You might ask, what has this got to do with the SU-57 conversion.

Firstly, the SU-57 is no where close to the VLO profile of the F-35 or F-22. At best it would be graded with a -10 dB. We are therefore comparing apples and oranges. Secondly, the strength of the F-35 is in its sensor fusion - not stealth. The development money and the cost of the F-35 is inherent in its electronic capabilities. We know nothing of the SU-57 progress including whether it even has a working AESA radar let alone all the other electronic "goodies". Explaining away the cost differential due to PPP is simply laughable. There is a cost attached to every capability.
 
Jura The idiot

Jura The idiot

General
Brumby said:
Can you please provide your reference source (with link if possible) on the 2.2 billion rouble per SU-57.
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I took an interest myself, searched yandex.ru for
Су-57 цена самолета
now, and my hit#2 is
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I quickly translate the second paragraph
:
Дело в том, что газета «Коммерсантъ» со ссылкой на источники опубликовала информацию, что стоимость планируемого к подписанию на МАКС-2019 контракта составит «порядка 170 млрд. руб.». Иными словами, один Су-57 обойдется нашим ВКС чуть дороже, чем в 2,23 млрд. руб., или 34,5 млн. долл. по текущему курсу.
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"The thing is the sources of The Kommersant newspaper claimed the contract
[for 76 Su-57s]
that should be signed at MAKS-2019 has a value "around 170b ruble." In other words, one copy of Su-57 will cost the Russian Air Force about 2.2b ruble, about $35m."

EDIT
now got an idea (LOL) to search google for
170+billion+ruble+su-57
and found
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"The actual contract is likely to be signed at MAKS-2019 show late August. According to
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the contract is valued at 170 billion RUB (this figure is too low), which will fully load the production line at Komsomolsk-on-Amur plant, though at a rather low profit margin of 3-5%."
etc.
 
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A

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
Brumby said:
Can you please provide your reference source (with link if possible) on the 2.2 billion rouble per SU-57.
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On May 15th Vladimir Putin announced that Russia would sign a contract for 76 Su-57 fighters, this will buy three regiments of 24 aircraft, plus a flight of 4 possibly destined for Lipetsk combat training center. The actual contract is likely to be signed at MAKS-2019 show late August. According to
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the contract is valued at 170 billion RUB (this figure is too low), which will fully load the production line at Komsomolsk-on-Amur plant, though at a rather low profit margin of 3-5%.
 
Brumby

Brumby

Major
Jura said:
I took an interest myself, search
ed yandex.ru for
Су-57 цена самолета
now, and my hit#2 is
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

I quickly translate the second paragraph
:

"The thing is the sources of The Kommersant newspaper claimed the contract
[for 76 Su-57s]
that should be signed at MAKS-2019 has a value "around 170b ruble." In other words, one copy of Su-57 will cost the Russian Air Force about 2.2b ruble, about $35m."

EDIT
now got an idea (LOL) to search google for
170+billion+ruble+su-57
and found
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

"The actual contract is likely to be signed at MAKS-2019 show late August. According to
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
the contract is valued at 170 billion RUB (this figure is too low), which will fully load the production line at Komsomolsk-on-Amur plant, though at a rather low profit margin of 3-5%."
etc.
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This basically mirrors the Drive article dated May 16, 2019 on the same subject
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Though Putin has announced the planned purchases, the Kremlin has yet to sign a formal contract. This official agreement could easily come at Russia’s annual MAKS airshow, which is set to run from Aug. 27 to Sept. 1, 2019, at the Zhukovsky International Airport outside Moscow. The full estimated cost, around $2.63 billion, also includes additional associated items, including infrastructure upgrades, to support the new aircraft.

But there are serious questions up front about how realistic this price tag is. If the $2.63 billion cost is accurate and covers the 76 Su-57s and more, this would equate to a unit price of less than $34 million per jet. This is less than the estimated unit cost
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Russia sold to China nearly two decades ago. It seems hard to see how any production line improvements or changes to the aircraft's configuration could lead to such a dramatic price reduction and anywhere near that low of unit price overall.

On top of that, Putin seemed to suggest in his comments at the meeting that the cost reductions would make the order for 76 Su-57 no more expensive than the previously planned purchase of just 16 aircraft. It is very difficult to see how it could be possible to buy nearly five times as many planes for the same price with just a 20 percent decrease in costs.
It seems more likely that the $2.63 billion would be for an initial batch of Su-57s as part of the full planned procurement program. It is also possible that Kommersant's source simply had incorrect information about the total cost.

Kremlin spokesperson Dmitri Peskov, seemingly aware of how improbable Putin's own comments sounded, subsequently said that the President had merely meant that the overall defense budget would not change, but that it could be necessary to reallocate funds to the Su-57 program to pay for the increased purchases. "This is not about a simple mathematical formula, it’s about the fact that, in general, the budget of the Ministry [of defense], the procurement budget will not increase, but some internal redistribution is, of course, possible and permissible,"
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.
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In essence, the $35 million a pop argument is grounded on an interpretation of what Putin said.
 
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