Russian Su-57 Aircraft Thread (PAK-FA and IAF FGFA)

[Epsilon]

While you are partially correct about the MAKs performances, my impression is that they are less energetic than the SU-35, F-22 performances that we have seen. More importantly we are seeing a very limited spectrum of the T-50s flight envelope.

Everything is relative, F-35 and J-20 which are also currently under development (and in F-35 case a lot longer) didn't show anything impressive in terms of flight performance, like whatsoever. After only 5 years of development T-50 I thought demonstrated quite great program at MAKS 2015 (which also shows fairly strong confidence from designers). And I'm sure there were still some G restrictions set. Also do not forget there is still room for grow with 2nd stage engine.

one of the reasons the Indians have become insistant about flying it, if the Russians have cut their buy to 12, that would indicate that it may not offer any real world advantages over the SU-35?? Certainly not enough to justify the T-50s 250, 000,000 price tag?? that's nine figures?? that is a bunch of cash.

I don't know how you come up with this stuff. 250, 000,000? That number is as realistic as 0.0000001 RCS of a certain fighter. Yeah, Russia will buy only 12 and then I guess will close the program. Sounds realistic. They will buy as many as they can build. And how many they can build will depend on economic situation and industry potential (they surely can't produce them at the same pace as Americans for example). Here is Victor Bondarev's inteview about this:

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[Hyperwarp]

***
I have never seen a F-22 do that only the F-16, albeit with a 3D thrust vector nozzle
***

Oh it can. It can do the 360 flat spin and another maneuver call the double pedal turn all without TVC. Remember for "Yaw" the F-22 doesn't use TVC. Its purely control surfaces. May not be as smooth as the Su-35/T-50 doing yaw movement but it certainly can:

 

[Hyperwarp]

Adding more to the above More:

4:40 - onwards "double pedal turn". Also called "double reversal" by the X-31 demo
7:40 - onwards "J-Turn"
8:20 - onwards "Flat spin"

Again, it is not as smooth as the MiG-29OVT, Su-30MKI, Su-35, T-50 etc, but it can do them to an extent.

 

[Jura The idiot]

seeing

Adding more to the above More:

4:40 - onwards "double pedal turn". Also called "double reversal" by the X-31 demo
7:40 - onwards "J-Turn"
8:20 - onwards "Flat spin"

...

I recalled I had attempted some naming of Russian maneuvers
Aug 28, 2015

not sure about the names of the maneuvers:

• Nesterov loop;
  
• tailslide (колокол - "bell");
  
• barrel roll (бочка - "keg") ;
  
• Pugachev cobra ...

LOL I guess the strongest emotions are connected to what I pull from
Russian Military News, Reports, Data, etc.
Aug 9, 2015

PAKFA showing Pugachev Cobra (my screenshot for PAKFA naysayers LOL):

...

 

[b787]

Oh it can. It can do the 360 flat spin and another maneuver call the double pedal turn all without TVC. Remember for "Yaw" the F-22 doesn't use TVC. Its purely control surfaces. May not be as smooth as the Su-35/T-50 doing yaw movement but it certainly can:

technically i was wrong but what i meant is the helicopter Maneuver the F-22 is not doing it in any video you showed

watch the video PAKFA replicates the F-16 VISTA routine. both aircraft have 3D thrust vectoring nozzles, PAKFA does the helicopter maneuver.

The F-22 is replicating the maneuvers made by the Su-37 T-10M 011, both F-22 and Su-37 have 2D nozzles

 

[Air Force Brat]

Everything is relative, F-35 and J-20 which are also currently under development (and in F-35 case a lot longer) didn't show anything impressive in terms of flight performance, like whatsoever. After only 5 years of development T-50 I thought demonstrated quite great program at MAKS 2015 (which also shows fairly strong confidence from designers). And I'm sure there were still some G restrictions set. Also do not forget there is still room for grow with 2nd stage engine.


I don't know how you come up with this stuff. 250, 000,000? That number is as realistic as 0.0000001 RCS of a certain fighter. Yeah, Russia will buy only 12 and then I guess will close the program. Sounds realistic. They will buy as many as they can build. And how many they can build will depend on economic situation and industry potential (they surely can't produce them at the same pace as Americans for example). Here is Victor Bondarev's inteview about this:

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$250,000,000 is the latest Russian offer to build 60 FGFA's India's 2 seat version of PAK-FA, and indeed Russia has stated that they were cutting their buy to just 12 aircraft for a test and evaluation squadron before ordering 48 additional SU-35s.

I would suggest you go back six months or a year and read Indian military thread posts that pertain to PAK-FA/FGFA for a little research. I would also remind you that the Chinese flew the J-31 at a trade show last fall?? So no this is not unheard of, and PAK-FA has always been intended to be a project partially funded with other peoples money, in this case the Indians have a lot of time and money in PAK-FA, and yes they are supposed to get their own prototype or two for their trouble.

It has been a joint project for some time now, at NO POINT did I state the Russians were closing the project, they fully intend to take the Indians money and build airplanes for the Indians, likely to fund their own purchases, just as on the Mig-29Ks they sold the Indian Navy.

I would also note that you have made 9 posts in 5 years here on SDF, so its rather obvious you have missed a few things, so do your own research on the Indian, Russian, and PAK-FA threads before you challenge the AFB! I am quoting almost exclusively from SDF quotes posted by fellow members, quotes that I have authenticated through various other sources, notably the Air Force Magazine, Flight Global, etc. etc.

RT is a very biased source in the opinion of many Senior Posters on SDF??? but you choose your own poison?

 

[Air Force Brat]

If you watch this video you will see the T-50 Flying a controlled flat spin

I have never seen a F-22 do that only the F-16, albeit with a 3D thrust vector nozzle

Further more PAKFA is a Russian project, India has no rights upon it, FGFA is different, they need to pay first flight later, PAKFA at this moment is like the X-35 program, the series production or pre series production has not been rolled out, in Russian terminology T means triangular wing, T-50 means the design internal denomination, when the aircraft gets the Su-xx denomination it will be ready for production, Su-27 was called T-10.

The F-22 will do exactly the same maneuver, Col Max Moga the first F-22 demo pilot was asked why the Russian exhibitions were so crazy, and his was so smooth. He pointed out, that at NO point did he "depart" the aircraft, that it was against flight safety regs here in the US, and NO he would not jeopardize his crowd or his aircraft. The Russians were bound by no such regulations, and were encouraged to go to the max, they are master showmen, they have also lost a very high number of aircraft proportionate to the US at airshows, sometimes with very devastating results for spectators?

The Indians had expressed a desire to purchase PAK-FA series two, and yes the Russians had promised the Indians full access early in the PAK-FA program as well as full collaboration in order to ascertain that FGFA would measure up to their expectations?? It looks like the Indians are backing off their PAK-FA purchase and are going to purchase additional SU-30MKI aircraft in the interim, just as the Russians have backed off there 75-100 aircraft purchase and have stated that they will purchase just 12 PAK-FAs for a Tand E squadron?

 

[b787]

The F-22 will do exactly the same maneuver, Col Max Moga the first F-22 demo pilot was asked why the Russian exhibitions were so crazy, and his was so smooth. He pointed out, that at NO point did he "depart" the aircraft, that it was against flight safety regs here in the US, and NO he would not jeopardize his crowd or his aircraft. The Russians were bound by no such regulations, and were encouraged to go to the max, they are master showmen, they have also lost a very high number of aircraft proportionate to the US at airshows, sometimes with very devastating results for spectators?

The Indians had expressed a desire to purchase PAK-FA series two, and yes the Russians had promised the Indians full access early in the PAK-FA program as well as full collaboration in order to ascertain that FGFA would measure up to their expectations?? It looks like the Indians are backing off their PAK-FA purchase and are going to purchase additional SU-30MKI aircraft in the interim, just as the Russians have backed off there 75-100 aircraft purchase and have stated that they will purchase just 12 PAK-FAs for a Tand E squadron?

Moga, with all due respect was no flying the F-16MATV, the F-16MATV is one of the most advanced designs the USA made in thrust vector technology.
In fact it was made ahead of the MiG-29OVT or Su-35S technology, however the F-22 has 2D nozzles.
I have never seen the F-22 doing the Helicopter maneuver, i have seen the F-22 doing almost all the maneuvers shown by the earlySu-37


When the PAKFA did the helicopter manuever it was in test flights

Now the 2D tech on the F-22 is better to hide infra red signature, it reduces the range the IRST systems will detect the F-22.

3D nozzles have the gases at higher concentration thus at higher temperature
At MAKS PAKFA has shown most manuevers Su-37 performed but in terms of performance and maneuverability the Russians boast the PAKFA is the top fighter in the world

About India you can think they will cancel that is fine, but i do not think so.

 

[Epsilon]

$250,000,000 is the latest Russian offer to build 60 FGFA's India's 2 seat version of PAK-FA

Yeah, I would like to see the source where that number came from. I doubt one will cost that many. I am not sure if anything serious was signed yet. Either way we can guess where the money might go. FGFA development (especially if they still want a two-seater, that will require quite a redisign), maybe building a production line in India, and aircrafts themselves.

and indeed Russia has stated that they were cutting their buy to just 12 aircraft for a test and evaluation squadron before ordering 48 additional SU-35s.

Su-35 is a good fighter, there are plenty reasons to produce it (faster and easier to make since it is already in production, +export potential, and of course workplaces that wouldn't be there if the production line would be shut down or shrinked due to no orders from Russia). And I brought you a link where it says they are buying as much as they can build and they won't be able to build a lot initially and that's natural and understandable.

PAK-FA has always been intended to be a project partially funded with other peoples money, in this case the Indians have a lot of time and money in PAK-FA, and yes they are supposed to get their own prototype or two for their trouble.

Maybe it was intended that way I am not sure but seems like in reality it went little different route. I am not sure what India really invested in terms of tech and money (that ~300 mln investment came pretty late and goes into FGFA as I understand it).

at NO POINT did I state the Russians were closing the project

Ok then why this "they are buying only 12"? It is obvious that they can't produce them at rapid pace at the moment. Sounds like sensationalist BS.

I would also note that you have made 9 posts in 5 years here on SDF, so its rather obvious you have missed a few things, so do your own research on the Indian, Russian, and PAK-FA threads before you challenge the AFB! I am quoting almost exclusively from SDF quotes posted by fellow members, quotes that I have authenticated through various other sources, notably the Air Force Magazine, Flight Global, etc. etc.

This forum or source of information is not the only one out there, I follow the subject close enough.

RT is a very biased source in the opinion of many Senior Posters on SDF??? but you choose your own poison?

RT is good factual source to get quotes etc You don't believe VVS commander said that? That quote is in various Russian sources. It surely more legit source than hysterical articles coming from some liberal Indian press.

 

[Hyperwarp]

Su-30MKI, Su-35, T-50 all have the same nozzle arrangement. 2D asymmetric vectoring but the nozzles are fixed rotated 30' inwards. F-22, Su-37 have 2D symmetric movement and nozzles not installed with any angle rotate.

On the other hand MiG-29OVT and an Su-27

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(

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) have real 3D TVC. This is why the MiG-29OVT can perform some crazy $h!t!. The most insane is a maneuver called the "mill":

F-16 VISTA/MATV, F-15 ACTIVE also have 3D TVC nozzles where exhaust can be redirected 360'. Unfortunately there is not much footage of the F-16 VISTA/MATV manuvers and almost nothing when it comes to the F-15 ACTIVE.