Russian Su-57 Aircraft Thread (PAK-FA and IAF FGFA)

SamuraiBlue

Captain
Seriously I did not know NEBO makes stealth useless. How so?

I was curious also so I was looking at how they work, it's basically the same as ghost reduction near a building. The radar is not looking at emissions that had bounce back directly from an object but looking for ghost images that appear due to interference within the area. In order for this to work they need to know background interference that occurs naturally so they can erase them and also of any friendly planes that is going to pass through so they can mark them off as well making the unknowns as potential threats. Once this exercise is done they can fire the targeting radar at full strength to light any stealth vehicle that may be in the area.
The inherent downside would be that there will be a lot of false positives registered as well. It's also selective in area where the method would work where there are places that radar wave will bounce off like within a valley or a mountain nearby.
 
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1454620375_1454591716_t-50.jpg


LOL only a moment ago I noticed the gun should be mounted close to the cockpit (for those who don't read Russian: in the middle of the chart, there's
Авиапушка
in the box) ... tell me if it shouldn't ...
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b787

Captain
Seriously I did not know NEBO makes stealth useless. How so?
PAKFA uses a similar system of 3 AESA radars
tVvedoW.jpg

The fact that some stealth configurations may be much less effective against very-high-frequency (VHF) radars than against higher-frequency systems is a matter of electromagnetic physics. A declassified 1985 CIA report correctly predicted that the Soviet Union’s first major counterstealth effort would be to develop new VHF radars that would reduce the disadvantages of long wavelengths: lack of mobility, poor resolution and susceptibility to clutter. Despite the breakup of the Soviet Union, the 55Zh6UE Nebo-U, designed by the Nizhny-Novgorod Research Institute of Radio Engineering (NNIIRT), entered service in the 1990s as the first three-dimensional Russian VHF radar. NNIRT subsequently prototyped the first VHF active electronically scanned array (AESA) systems.

VHF AESA technology has entered production as part of the 55Zh6M Nebo-M multiband radar complex, which passed State tests in 2011 and is in production for Russian air defense forces against a 100-system order. The Nebo-M includes three truck-mounted radar systems, all of them -AESAs: the VHF RLM-M, the RLM-D in L-band (UHF) and the S/X-band RLM-S. (Russian documentation describes them as metric, decimetric and centimetric—that is, each differs from the next by an order of magnitude in frequency.) Each of the radars is equipped with the Orientir location system, comprising three Glonass satellite navigation receivers on a fixed frame, and they are connected via wireless or cable datalink to a ground control vehicle.

One of the classic drawbacks of VHF is slow scan rate. With the RLM-M, electronic scanning is superimposed on mechanical scanning. The radar can scan a 120-deg. sector mechanically, maintaining continuous track through all but the outer 15-deg. sectors. Within the scan area, the scan is virtually instantaneous, allowing energy to be focused on any possible target. It retains the basic advantages of VHF: NNIRT says that the Chinese DF-15 short-range ballistic missile has a 0.002 m2 RCS in X-band, but is 0.6 m2 in VHF.

The principle behind Nebo-M is the fusion of data from the three radars to create a robust kill chain. The VHF system performs initial detection and cues the UHF radar, which in turn can cue the X-band RLM-S. The Orientir system provides accurate azimuth data (which Glonass/GPS on its own does not support), and makes it possible for the three signals to be combined into a single target picture.
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Stealth designs are optimized for medium to high freq. bands

Wavelength is comparable to aircraft parts (wings, stabilators)

Scattering enters Mie or resonance region (max RCS)

RAM less effective at low frequencies
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3.2 Multi-Band 3D Radar: This is a modern technology, evolved by Russia in late 2008. This radar system is a pack of three to four discrete radars and a single Processing and Command unit. One of such existing radar system is the Nebo Radar. The VHF- Band element of the system provides sector search and track functions of low RCS targets, with the X-Band and L-Band elements providing a nice tracking capability. Trial s to jam the Stealth Technology And Counter Stealth Radars... 18 Nebo-M will be tough, since a huge amount of power is required for jamming these types of radars. All of them have a passive angle tracking capability against jammers, as a result of which utilization of a jammer allows passive triangulation of the target using three-angle track outputs.Passive Anti-Stealth Measures „Passive Anti Stealth Radar‟ concept. These systems do not use reflected energy and, hence, are more accurately denoted as Electronic Support Measure (ESM) systems. Well- known examples of passive radars comprise the Czech TAMARA/VERA system and the Ukrainian Kolchuga system.

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Brumby

Major
PAKFA uses a similar system of 3 AESA radars
That particular article you posted has been used by you on at least one occasion before basically in the anti-stealth thread in which I responded to it which I will reproduce here below :

b787,
Is there anything in the s400 marketing brochure that you would like to emphasize in support of your assertion that the S400 system is an effective area denial to the F-22? I can't from what you have shared.
With regards to the Nebo M 3-D system, admittedly it is an innovative approach but it is heavy on marketing but lacking specifics to demonstrate that somehow it is an effective aerial denial system against the F-22.

It is important for you to understand that there is a difference between taking some materials and presenting them as evidence in support of your case and actually explaining how the contents actually support your case. In other words, we are having a conversation with you and not the materials. Having said that, this tri band approach which is meant to narrow the search box through cueing of data does not inherently address a fundamental issue when dealing with VLO platforms such as the F-22. The UHF/VHF band by nature has poor resolution even if it might be capable of detecting the F-22 at a greater distance. It is meant to cue that information to the next band so that the acquisition box is more defined in terms of search and dwell time so that there is greater probability of detection at the next band. The problem is without information on bearing attitude, velocity and range the idea of a derived acquisition box is simply no different from one that is not derived.
In that instance, instead of specifically replying you added a couple of youtube videos. Can I tell you my answers are found in "War and peace", please read it up?
 

SamuraiBlue

Captain
PAKFA uses a similar system of 3 AESA radars
I seriously doubt that.

First off NEBO radars operate in a very different way compared to conventional radar in which it requires background interference of the area they scan recorded for cross reference to find new anomalies. That wouldn't work in a moving vehicle. Second it needs a secondary reflective wave such as a mountain to scan for those anomalies. Third NEBO radars operates in a relatively low frequency band in the VHF range with a wave frequency in the meter range meaning the transmitter antenna needs to be that large and uses a YAGI antenna as receivers. I have seen some ELINT crafts with YAGI antennas but a would be a nightmare for fighter planes equipped with them.
Basically NEBO radar is for ground scanning not for moving vehicles.
 

Hyperwarp

Captain
The L-Band AESA on the wing leading edge extensions of the T-50 are said to be for IFF interrogation officially but may have some EW purposes but thats not official in anyway. I remember in the early days the AN/ALR-94 was classified as an RWR. But now we know it is a lot more than that. In-fact its the most advanced thing on the F-22. So maybe the N036L-1-01 are part of some highly sophisticated system but thats just speculation.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Going back a little, but a logical fallacy often invoked by Russian fans is them bringing up elements tested on experimental aircraft, like the flat nozzles on the Su27 and S-ducts on the S47, and insisting that Russia is a master at those technologies and chose not to use them as opposed to not being able to master them to incorporate into the PAKFA design.

Just because they tested them is not actually proof that the tests were successful. Point in fact, neither design feature have been applied to any operational aircraft.

It could have been that they have reviewed the test data and decided that the benefits did not justify the costs and compromises. But it's just as plausible that they were just not able to get the feature to work as well as others have and/or fit with their other designs goals, so could not incorporate them into future designs.

For the flat nozzles, it could well be that the cost just wasn't worth the benefits, since even the Americans went back to using round nozzles on the F35.

For the S-duct, considering how pretty much everyone else is using them, and the state the Russian aviation industry was in when work on the PAKFA started in earnist, I find the balance of probabilities favouring the likelihood they simply lacked the experience and resources necessary to confidently apply that to a new design.
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
I seriously doubt that.

First off NEBO radars operate in a very different way compared to conventional radar in which it requires background interference of the area they scan recorded for cross reference to find new anomalies. That wouldn't work in a moving vehicle. Second it needs a secondary reflective wave such as a mountain to scan for those anomalies. Third NEBO radars operates in a relatively low frequency band in the VHF range with a wave frequency in the meter range meaning the transmitter antenna needs to be that large and uses a YAGI antenna as receivers. I have seen some ELINT crafts with YAGI antennas but a would be a nightmare for fighter planes equipped with them.
Basically NEBO radar is for ground scanning not for moving vehicles.

Roger that Bruda, you and Mr. Brumby are onto this little game, and thanks for summing it up so succinctly each of you.
 
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