Russian Su-57 Aircraft Thread (PAK-FA and IAF FGFA)

[Hyperwarp]

#053

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[aksha]

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going by the past , the numbers won't be limited to 60,
will end up with at least 100.

NEW DELHI, FEB. 3, 2016: India and Russia are in final negotiations in New Delhi to settle the contributions for the development of the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) at a reported $3.7 billion from both sides, Arming India has learnt from diplomatic sources. An early conclusion of the agreement is expected.

Development costs are to be paid in seven years, starting with an initial payment of $1 billion. The breakthrough follows a price reduction by Russia last month.

India's contribution for development costs would entitle it to extensive transfer of technology and include delivery of three prototypes. Subsequently, the entire lot of FGFAs for the Indian Air Force (IAF) are intended to be made at Hindustan Aeronautics Limited's 'Russia complex' in Nasik, Maharashtra.

The cost of each series production FGFA is initially pegged at a whopping $225 million apiece, which is about two-and-a-half times the estimated current price of the Su-30MKI, currently India's frontline fighter.

Sources disclosed that a reluctant IAF has finally been made to come around on the FGFA. But it has reduced its requirement to just 60 fighters, or three squadrons. This is being interpreted as a lack of enthusiasm for the proposed fighter, which is yet to prove true fifth generation capability.

The initial numbers were pegged around 220, which were later brought down to 120, and now have dwindled to half of even the reduced numbers.


But Russia is hopeful of persuading India to eventually commit to far more than the initial lot of 60 FGFAs.

India will have no major contribution to design and development, and the project is being re-modeled on the Su-30MKI lines, wherein India substantially paid for the development cost, paving the way for assembly line production in India under transfer of technology.

The initial concept of India having a substantial work share in the design and development of the fifth generation fighter in order to boost indigenous capability has been abandoned.

The rapid headway on the under-development FGFA is in stark contrast to the stalemate in price negotiations on the curtailed order for 36 flyaway French Rafale fighters, which are reportedly stalled at a level of over $11 billion, according to top Indian Defense Ministry sources.

The FGFA will very significantly enable Russia's military industrial complex to extend its pre-eminence in India by ensuring a follow-on to the Su-30MKI production line.

Informed observers see this as a shot in the arm for the Russia.



Just a month ago, Russia rejected the possibility of trying out an alliance with the private sector Reliance Defence on the production of 200 Ka-226T light utility helicopters for the Indian armed forces by opting for HAL to be the production agency in India.

 

[b787]

old picture but nice

 

[tphuang]

have to say that the price tag for PAK-FA really doesn't sound that bad when compared to Rafale. Not sure why they are complaining about it being 2 and half times of Su-30, since it's a new generation and there is natural inflation costs.

 

[b787]

 

[Air Force Brat]

have to say that the price tag for PAK-FA really doesn't sound that bad when compared to Rafale. Not sure why they are complaining about it being 2 and half times of Su-30, since it's a new generation and there is natural inflation costs.

225 million per copy is a KRAP load of money for an airplane that has yet to prove any significant L/O capability, it will be agile, one would hope?? but for a Russian airplane, that is a bunch of money, for an airplane that has yet to see a single proto-type?, especiallyn light of the Russians cutting their own buy to 12 aircraft?

 

[Brumby]

225 million per copy is a KRAP load of money for an airplane that has yet to prove any significant L/O capability, it will be agile, one would hope?? but for a Russian airplane, that is a bunch of money, for an airplane that has yet to see a single proto-type?, especiallyn light of the Russians cutting their own buy to 12 aircraft?

AFB,
I think you are being too harsh on this initial numbers. Comparatively, the initial LRIP lots on the F-35 were within this costing. If that is the number the Russians think they need to incur such cost per their cost structure it is nevertheless within the benchmark as set by the F-35. 5th generation production is a tricky business and cost can easily blowout. They probably build buffers in the number.

I thought the interesting comment which I have seen mentioned often is that the Indians are not convinced that the plane offers true 5th gen capabilities. Given that there are already a number of prototypes built and flown, the LO features should be reasonably established by now. If it is not LO I wonder what it is? I suspect it probably it may be with avionics/sensors.

 

[Air Force Brat]

AFB,
I think you are being too harsh on this initial numbers. Comparatively, the initial LRIP lots on the F-35 were within this costing. If that is the number the Russians think they need to incur such cost per their cost structure it is nevertheless within the benchmark as set by the F-35. 5th generation production is a tricky business and cost can easily blowout. They probably build buffers in the number.

I thought the interesting comment which I have seen mentioned often is that the Indians are not convinced that the plane offers true 5th gen capabilities. Given that there are already a number of prototypes built and flown, the LO features should be reasonably established by now. If it is not LO I wonder what it is? I suspect it probably it may be with avionics/sensors.

The IAF is dragging their feet with good reason, this is a "pie in the sky", deal, the Indians have yet to be offered a single flight in the Russians PAK-FA?? the Russians have a "track record" overpromising capability, and under quoting the eventual cost and expenses, and worse, the reliability is more often than not "lacking" to say the least?

riddle me this Batman?? would you take out your wallet and pay for the first one out of your own pocket?????? I didn't think so, I wouldn't either and I'm just a little cautious financially, you on the other hand??? are like my Uncle Henry.

as I pointed out, even the Russian Air Force is dragging their feet by cutting their initial order to 12 airplanes? no, I"m not being to harsh?? LOL I'm being a skeptic?

 

[Brumby]

The IAF is dragging their feet with good reason, this is a "pie in the sky", deal, the Indians have yet to be offered a single flight in the Russians PAK-FA?? the Russians have a "track record" overpromising capability, and under quoting the eventual cost and expenses, and worse, the reliability is more often than not "lacking" to say the least?

riddle me this Batman?? would you take out your wallet and pay for the first one out of your own pocket?????? I didn't think so, I wouldn't either and I'm just a little cautious financially, you on the other hand??? are like my Uncle Henry.

When you combine Indian negotiation and Russian promises, what do you get? An epic saga that even "the bold and beautiful" series would have difficulty competing in duration and surprises. For what it is worth, just enjoy the fun and entertainment.

 

[Air Force Brat]

have to say that the price tag for PAK-FA really doesn't sound that bad when compared to Rafale. Not sure why they are complaining about it being 2 and half times of Su-30, since it's a new generation and there is natural inflation costs.

I'm assuming that is 055 being refuseladged

When you combine Indian negotiation and Russian promises, what do you get? An epic saga that even "the bold and beautiful" series would have difficulty competing in duration and surprises. For what it is worth, just enjoy the fun and entertainment.

Exactly, Boeing is offering to produce the F-18 Super Hornet in India, and close the line here in St. Louis? Looking at the Super Hornet Advance, then you have quite an airplane, and as we all know, Boeing will deliver exactly what they promise, at a fair price, not to mention the technology exchange.