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Richard Santos

Captain
Registered Member
In my opinion
Well theoretically bigger ship has more water tight compartments, so given the same damage delivered by say 200kg warhead bigger ship has a larger proportion of buoyancy intact compared to smaller ship.

Problem is given the decrepit state of repair, how many of Moskva's water tight compartments can be considered truly water tight? Zi Ya Zhou's video mentioned they saw bulkhead doors held together with ropes in her sister ship doesn't inspire much confidence....

Also Russia's school of thought of warship design AKA "Stuff as many weapons as humanly possible onto a hull" is not helping..... If a AShM is to hit the ship it would struggle to find a spot where there isn't some boom boom's waiting to cook off....
theoretically, yes. but a lot of other factors play a big, in many cases bigger, role too. the location of the hits, the number and density of watertight partitions, whether the ship has any internal protective plating to limit splinter penetration, is the location of pumps and fire main risers well thought out. Is the ship well set up to establish damage control boundaries to contain fire and flooding, is the crew well trained, was the ship at action station with compartments well closed down. is the ship painted with sufficiently fire proof paint, Are there extraneous flammable substances in the ships is the internal furniture, equipment, insulation etc chosen to avoid putting out toxic or opaque smoke during fires, etc etc.

There are many other critical factors determining a ship’s relative survivability in case of battle damage than bigger ships mean more hit points.

The truth is the last time when the russian navy had serious experience with dealing with major warship damage during battle was during the russo-japanese war 117 years ago. In that war much of the experience sank and didn’t make it back to russia. Russia’s naval experience during WWII is trivial compared to those of the major naval powers and did not show their competence in any good light. During the cold war the soviets built a very large surface fleet but on average they spent only about 20% as much time at sea as their american counterpart, the rest of the time their men stayed in barracks on land while their NATO counterparts were still operating the ships at sea in rough weather, firing weapons and gaining experience with how each part of their ship behaves in routine operation abs during accidents abs incidents. It is easy to imagine lack of experience caused them to over look small seemingly trivial aspect of how to design equip and operate warships that only experience can show to be potentially critical, making their ships more susceptible to losses due to damage control flaws and oversights then their western counterparts.
 
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Zichan

Junior Member
Registered Member
Yet no battleships ever survived more than two torpedo hits and still made port.
KMS Bismarck took three torpedo hits, two of which caused minor damage and the last jammed its rudders.

Theoretically, the ship could have made it to port had it not been intercepted by the Grand Fleet and pummeled with several hundred heavy cannon shells.
 

Richard Santos

Captain
Registered Member
KMS Bismarck took three torpedo hits, two of which caused minor damage and the last jammed its rudders.

Theoretically, the ship could have made it to port had it not been intercepted by the Grand Fleet and pummeled with several hundred heavy cannon shells.
theoretically, if the third torpedo did not make her unsteerable. but in practice she did not make port and could never make port because she can’t steer after the third torpedo hit. she could only steam in circles unless she tried to use wind pressure to hold a roughly straight course by sailing into the wind. The wind was blowing from the wrong direction for her to make any german occupied port.

so she was doomed by the third torpedo even if the british home fleet stayed o scapa flow. the epic pounding she endured the next day was totally superfluous.

If people applied the same logic as they used to deny moskva could have succumbed to 2 missile, they would claim bismarck must have succumbed to internal explosion that had nothing to do with torpedoes because 2 or three torpedos should not have doomed her.
 
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Zichan

Junior Member
Registered Member
Shieffield was Batch 1 of Type 42 - it had 3500t standard displacement and 120m length. Moskva had 9400t standard displacement and 186m length.
Stark had about 3500t standard displacement was hit by two Exocets and survived and returned to service. Sp this can't be the explanation.

Here's one that I put it together after I saw the photos this morning, because I was waiting for the photos since the news broke. It's still a speculation but it seems to me that it manages to integrate all the pieces of information that were released previously into a coherent scenario.

First note that there are no signs of hull damage apart from the suspected strike point and fire and smoke is seen emerging through open hatches and other ducts. Now combine that with the fact that quickly after the first news of attack we learnt that the ship was sinking, then that it was being towed which indicated it lost power.

Ammo explosion should be immediately rejected because S-300F is the only place on the ship where a detonation could damage the hull significantly, but if it did the ship would probably be beyond salvage. P-500 launchers are on deck so detonation dissipates into the air and damage is done to the superstructure and first layer under deck but unlikely to sink the ship. Another fact that people miss is that fuel tends to burn rather than explode, and warheads are armored and it's difficult to cause spontaneous ignition.

Once the photo was out it seemed obvious to compare it with the layout of the ship.

View attachment 87272

The area where the missiles supposedly hit is where the turbines are. Turbines look like jet egines, or this thing below - except that they are encased in a shell that allows for pressure gradient inside the turbine.

View attachment 87273

On the left you have the compressor - the blades shape the flow of air into the combustion chamber - the bit without blades - where fuel is injected into high-pressure, high-temperature air and the ignited gas mixture propels the fans on the right which are the turbine proper. This means that every gas turbine is a fiery pressure bomb with fragmentation from the blades just waiting to happen as soon as you damage the casing and also as soon as the shaft is loose it will transfer its angular momentum onto everything around it.

The worst thing that you can hit on a ship is propellant storage (not ammo!). The second worst thing is hitting a working turbine or a boiler.

Now you need to remember that Moskva was only superficially overhauled. There were reports that the sprinkler system which didn't work wasn't fixed. If that as overlooked I suspect that another crucial system was faulty as well - ventilation. Without ventilation human crews can't operate because it's the toxic fumes that kill you, not the fire. Without sprinklers fire spreads and you get more fumes.

If you look at the layout and pay attention to the description below you will see that while the "red" areas are engine rooms the "yellow" areas are places like electrical switchboards and some other technical spaces as well as the command center right in front of the first engine room. Slava was designed before survivability through dispersal and redundancy was even considered as a standard design practice. This means that if turbines were hit and there was damage, fire and smoke everywhere then the switchboards and the like were quickly made inaccessible to anyone who wasn't a properly suited emergency team. Loss of turbines and electrical network would lead to loss of control over the ship's systems and soon it would mean that humans had to do all the mechanical work to operate the ship. The same humans that had to rely on gravity for ventilation - which is why you have the smoke marks on the hatches - before they could enter an area filled with smoke.

So what is a common solution in such situations - when you need to stop the fire and further damage but have no means of doing it through regular means?

You allow controlled flooding of parts of the ship. You let it sink just enough that the fires die out but the ship still floats. And it seems to me that this might be what we see here on the photo. For an old ship that lost power and has a fire in the engine room right over the place where fuel enters the turbines - sinking sounds like the safest solution. At worst you make a mistake and sink the ship but gain enough time that the crew evacuates. At best you stabilize the hull an it can be towed to port.

Moskva was being towed to port when it sank meaning it was not sinking and only took on more water due to improper handling. If a ship is sinking nobody will tow it 100+ km across the sea because you can only tow a ship at very low speeds and water needs time to enter the ship through pressure leaks. However during towing the ship can gather water through movement or change of position and sink anyway.

So that's my interpretation: two missiles hit the engine rooms, turbines exploded, there was some damage to internal structure and systems, emergency systems failed, fire and smoke spread inside the ship, the decision to flood the damaged area and evacuate the crew was made, the salvage ships arrived and stabilized the wreck, tugboats took it some distance from the place of the attack and it took water and sank underway.

It matches the "compound neglect" theory which I explained previously. It matches what we can see on the picture and the layout.

Two missiles can't sink a cruiser especially if they don't explode. But if they explode and damage working turbines your ship needs to be in perfect condition and the crew needs to be well trained for the ship to survive it because you lost power and the fire is in the very source of energy for the ship. Moskva almost survived it and that's despite all we heard about the ship and Russian Navy standards which is plausible considering it was just two medium AShMs with 150kg warheads.

Also:

Note that both 3R41 and both Osa-M systems are in rest position indicating that the crew didn't know that they should be scanning for threats. Most likely the missiles didn't register on displays from Fregat-M and Voskhod - which is also plausible.

So far it makes sense to me. We'll see if any more photos or clips leak out over time.
What about auxiliary generators? Wouldn’t they be sufficiently apart of the main engine rooms to maintain electrical power? After all, the large crane behind the funnels was used to lower rescue boats into the water.
 

pmc

Major
Registered Member
This is the first confirmed list of the total officer corps loss of the Russian Army from the beginning of the invasion.The numbers are scary
confirmed from where?
It is same stupidity of spending time on Moskova sinking. if the first two missiles didnot sink Moskova on time. why didnot send more missiles on Moskvo or any rescue ships. it does not make sense they only have two missiles with no time for second re load.
 

PiSigma

"the engineer"
This is the first confirmed list of the total officer corps loss of the Russian Army from the beginning of the invasion.The numbers are scary
The source of data is from another twitter account. Considering a couple of weeks ago Russia announced they suffer 500 casualties, bit here there is already about 200 people. Does that means Russia loses officers at a ratio of 2:3 to grunts? That doesn't make any sense anywhere.

Also their source is another twitter account, so probably 100% BS.
 

pmc

Major
Registered Member
it takes only 30 to 40 minute to reload a next salvo of 32 missiles for similar missile system. so point is why Ukraine only has 2 missiles for ship that will be standing for so long. this size of missiles are designed for up to 5000 ton ships and that very latest version with real R&D skills behind it. no one is debating Ukrainian incompetence of not being able of sink old ship when an intelligence ship only took 3 hours to sink few year back without any fire. this not long range shot that need UAVs.

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The Bal system needs new target designation technology due to the missile’s longer range, Antsev said.

"The upgraded Bal system is most likely to be furnished with an unmanned aerial vehicle, which will function as a target designation system. We are cooperating with the Kamov Design Bureau, which has a UAV weighing about a ton. We have a partner, Radar-mms Company, which is developing a UAV with a weight of about 500 kilograms," Antsev said.
 
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