Russian Military News, Reports, Data, etc.
- Thread starter tphuang
- Start date
Which is different from e.g. the UK in what way exactly? As recently as 2004, the RN had 12 SSNs in service, currently (and for the foreseeable future) that level is almost halved. And let's not even start discussing late Cold War fleet size (16, plus a dozen or so SSKs).
Lethe
Captain
I guess the difference is that the UK actually retired most of the stuff it could no longer afford to operate and replaced the remainder, while in Russia's case they've kept Soviet-era platforms in large numbers and the production of new platforms has been slow and sporadic. The broader politico-economic context makes it implausible that those old platforms will be replaced at anything approaching a 1:1 ratio. The combined picture is of a declining power clinging to the relics of a bygone era rather than adjusting to reality.
In many ways that picture is unfair or simplistic. Almost all the hardware that remains in Russian service is from the late Soviet period and chronologically not too far out of step with e.g. the US. Most of the refurbished platforms are from 1990-1995, are highly valuable and often unique capabilities, and never saw degradation from service. Additionally, new units ARE coming online, and Russian naval doctrine of limited deployments makes it more plausible to maintain older units in a seaworthy state. All of that is often neglected by habitual critics of Russia.
But in some cases, as with the carrier Kuznetsov, the optics are spot on, and one can only roll one's eyes at the idea that this ship and it's air wing either a) provides anything in the present, or b) serves as a stepping stone to a glorious future of naval aviation. Just let it die already.
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The Russian blue water surface navy, like I said previously, is indeed in quite poor condition. Because of the sanctions after the Maidan revolution in Ukraine a lot of programs were severely delayed and ships had to be sold abroad. The Mistral LHDs were sold to Egypt and at least two Admiral Grigorovich frigates will be sold to India. That is not counting on ships which could have been launched by now and weren't. For example the Gremyashchiy-class corvettes production with German MTU engines had to be cut in favor of more Steregushchiy-class.
Thankfully the Admiral Gorshkov-class frigates are now finally in service (I would say there the major issue was debugging the electronics suite rather than the lack of engines) and they have even changed the design to have more VLS cells in the latest two builds. The Steregushchiy-class is also being replaced with the Merkuriy-class which will use Russian turbine engines instead of large marine diesels which is a weakness in their naval industry. The available engine designs are totally outdated.
The latest Admiral Gorshkov-class frigate designs should have enough firepower to even replace the Udaloy and Sovremenny-class destroyers in their roles. Those are much larger ships. If anything I think they should increase production of the Admiral Gorshkov-class frigates by producing it at another shipyard or two in addition to the one at St. Petersburg. Work is also being done on a larger ship based on the Admiral Gorshkov-class which would have basically the tonnage of the Udaloy and could replace the Slavas in some applications.
Then there are the nuclear engine based designs like the Lider or the new carriers. But I doubt those will happen until the middle of the next decade because of the delays. Frankly the Russians would be better served by just producing more frigates. They have a severe lack of modern large ships and dry dock facilities and shipyards. So building more smaller ships makes more sense.
Still their surface fleet only isn't a total failure because of all those corvettes they have which are armed to the teeth.
Thankfully the Admiral Gorshkov-class frigates are now finally in service (I would say there the major issue was debugging the electronics suite rather than the lack of engines) and they have even changed the design to have more VLS cells in the latest two builds. The Steregushchiy-class is also being replaced with the Merkuriy-class which will use Russian turbine engines instead of large marine diesels which is a weakness in their naval industry. The available engine designs are totally outdated.
The latest Admiral Gorshkov-class frigate designs should have enough firepower to even replace the Udaloy and Sovremenny-class destroyers in their roles. Those are much larger ships. If anything I think they should increase production of the Admiral Gorshkov-class frigates by producing it at another shipyard or two in addition to the one at St. Petersburg. Work is also being done on a larger ship based on the Admiral Gorshkov-class which would have basically the tonnage of the Udaloy and could replace the Slavas in some applications.
Then there are the nuclear engine based designs like the Lider or the new carriers. But I doubt those will happen until the middle of the next decade because of the delays. Frankly the Russians would be better served by just producing more frigates. They have a severe lack of modern large ships and dry dock facilities and shipyards. So building more smaller ships makes more sense.
Still their surface fleet only isn't a total failure because of all those corvettes they have which are armed to the teeth.
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Jura The idiot
General
looking at this page ... Nov 7, 2017
"Don't cover Russia with your mind,
Don't use your norms for understanding:
It has its outstanding kind -
You must believe without fading."
... actually like this translation more ():
"Don't cover Russia with your mind,
Don't use your norms for understanding:
It has its outstanding kind -
You must believe without fading."
Jura The idiot
General
Yesterday at 6:50 PM
by the way
I read () they got new limos
now went through this photo-gallery so I share the link:
by the way
I read () they got new limos
In the past ten years the importance of sea changed for Russia.
Prior of that there was no real usage of any navy , due to the lack of any serious sea shipping.
But the collapsing arctic ocean ice cover increased the shipping activity there.
Russia developing huge LNG infrastructure in the arctic, with new shipyards, icebreakers and so on.
This increase the utility of the surface naval ships, and created a strong reason to have them.
The current changes in the arctic climate creating similar case like the panama canal for the US, creating a strong reason to have a navy.
Prior of that there was no real usage of any navy , due to the lack of any serious sea shipping.
But the collapsing arctic ocean ice cover increased the shipping activity there.
Russia developing huge LNG infrastructure in the arctic, with new shipyards, icebreakers and so on.
This increase the utility of the surface naval ships, and created a strong reason to have them.
The current changes in the arctic climate creating similar case like the panama canal for the US, creating a strong reason to have a navy.
To properly replace ocean-going vessels, more than just cells is needed.
This change is happening with 22350m class, as far as we know.
Both 20380/5 and 22350 are just too short-legged(yet expensive) for their firepower and capabilities, but were just as time-consuming to build.
20386 has grown firmly into frigate area. 22350M, with claimed standart dispacement of around 7000t(Burke!) is repeating the same path.
From what I understand the Steregushchiy corvettes (20380) and the Admiral Grigorovich frigates (11356Р/М) were basically meant as a low tech replacement for their older ships until more modern alternatives like the Gremyashchiy corvettes (20385) and the Admiral Gorshkov frigates (22350) became available. So they were never meant to be in production for a long time.
The Russians seem to have taken an excruciatingly long time to debug the more modern AESA radars and digital combat systems on the new ship classes. Add to that the issue with lack of engines from Ukraine and Germany due to sanctions. Both these factors basically put the kibosh on any chances those programs could proceed at a decent pace. The engine issue is especially clear in ship classes like the Buyan corvettes (21630/21631), or the Admiral Grigorovich frigates (11356Р/М) which suffered long delays. The modern combat systems delays are particularly evident in the Gremyashchiy corvettes (20385) and the Admiral Gorshkov frigates (22350).
Still, I agree with you that it is unbelievable how slowly Russia's shipyards can produce some ships. I mean just compare the time needed to produce a Gepard class frigate and a Steregushchiy corvette. Both ships have a similar displacement and more or less similar weapon system level. Yet the Steregushchiys take twice as long to build. It seems to be a popular idea among Russian media to attribute the delays to corruption. But personally I think the delays are because the ship designs are simply not adequate for rapid production. Particularly the Steregushchiy/Gremyashchiy corvettes. Too many blocks and parts. There are also delays because of funding issues. I mean sometimes ship construction stalls 1-2 years waiting for funding to come. This is no way to run a business. The government should do block purchases of ship types. At least they seem to be starting to do this with the nuclear submarine program. Also they probably should have focused their purchases on less shipyards. By only giving a couple of orders to each of several yards to keep them all afloat you never get economies of scale from mass production.
I think right now the issues with the combat systems are basically fixed. But the issues with propulsion still remain. Russia simply does not have enough naval engine production but even worse it seems they can't even adequately produce reduction gear and transmissions.
Anyway, the Russian naval industry looks like a basket case. I think the Admiral Gorshkov design is now adequate and they should produce it at another site to increase production rate. They also need to figure out some way to speed up corvette construction and like you said design and manufacture cruiser ships.
Personally I think the Project 20386 corvettes and Project 22160 patrol ships are a bad idea. The Project 22160 at least is being built reasonably quickly, but the equipment level of these ships is just too atrocious. These ships are LCSskies. The ships are basically a hull with a dinky little gun and little else. They provide really poor combat capabilities.
The Russians seem to have taken an excruciatingly long time to debug the more modern AESA radars and digital combat systems on the new ship classes. Add to that the issue with lack of engines from Ukraine and Germany due to sanctions. Both these factors basically put the kibosh on any chances those programs could proceed at a decent pace. The engine issue is especially clear in ship classes like the Buyan corvettes (21630/21631), or the Admiral Grigorovich frigates (11356Р/М) which suffered long delays. The modern combat systems delays are particularly evident in the Gremyashchiy corvettes (20385) and the Admiral Gorshkov frigates (22350).
Still, I agree with you that it is unbelievable how slowly Russia's shipyards can produce some ships. I mean just compare the time needed to produce a Gepard class frigate and a Steregushchiy corvette. Both ships have a similar displacement and more or less similar weapon system level. Yet the Steregushchiys take twice as long to build. It seems to be a popular idea among Russian media to attribute the delays to corruption. But personally I think the delays are because the ship designs are simply not adequate for rapid production. Particularly the Steregushchiy/Gremyashchiy corvettes. Too many blocks and parts. There are also delays because of funding issues. I mean sometimes ship construction stalls 1-2 years waiting for funding to come. This is no way to run a business. The government should do block purchases of ship types. At least they seem to be starting to do this with the nuclear submarine program. Also they probably should have focused their purchases on less shipyards. By only giving a couple of orders to each of several yards to keep them all afloat you never get economies of scale from mass production.
I think right now the issues with the combat systems are basically fixed. But the issues with propulsion still remain. Russia simply does not have enough naval engine production but even worse it seems they can't even adequately produce reduction gear and transmissions.
Anyway, the Russian naval industry looks like a basket case. I think the Admiral Gorshkov design is now adequate and they should produce it at another site to increase production rate. They also need to figure out some way to speed up corvette construction and like you said design and manufacture cruiser ships.
Personally I think the Project 20386 corvettes and Project 22160 patrol ships are a bad idea. The Project 22160 at least is being built reasonably quickly, but the equipment level of these ships is just too atrocious. These ships are LCSskies. The ships are basically a hull with a dinky little gun and little else. They provide really poor combat capabilities.
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