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MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Yes is I know it's business, but my question is why is Russia in need of a third partner to help fund for it's T-50 project? Why can't they do it all by themselves like China and the US?
No one these days work alone, in fact F-35 is an international program, so far China uses Russian engines.


Sukhoi and Russia gain more having export orders, but stealth aircraft are expensive so the customer always ask some degree of tech transfers or industrial share.

Russia does not loose simply because the money poured in the project cheapens T-50 for their own Russian market and the export market gets a cheaper jet.


T-50 is just one of the new Russian projects, the 6th generation will based on T-50, so India and Brazil are basicly helping the next generation aircraft.

Russia invest less and makes money. like F-35, the business is always cheaper products



Russia is actively developing an unmanned sixth generation aircraft, said a former Air Force commander. Unlike NATO allies who will use American F-35 5Gs, self-sufficiency is an absolute must for Russia, said the commander, so 6G evolution is inevitable.

With a fifth generation PAK-FA heavy attack jet already developed and planned to enter service in 2016, Russian aviation is also looking to the future of air combat, conducting research and development for aircraft that can dominate airspace by the mid-21st century.

Ahead of the MAKS-2013 airshow due to start on August 27, the former Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Air Force, Army General Pyotr Deynekin, gave an interview to the RIA news agency, in which he made vague, yet far-reaching remarks about the future Russian Air Force.

Deynekin admitted that work on the sixth generation long range assault jet is in “active phase” and “most probably” the aircraft will be unmanned. While some NATO member countries are planning to ‘forego’ development of a fifth generation fighter jet, buying American F-35’s instead and developing a sixth generation aircraft from scratch, Russia has no possibility to economize in that way, he said.

“We must do this serious undertaking on our own, so jumping over a [aircraft development] generation is hardly possible,” Pyotr Deynekin told RIA.
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MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Russia is better off getting paid in barter good. Dollar and Euro are almost certain be devalued. Give me goatskins please.

hahaa, just watched the video, "Chinese paid us in down jackets, but the jackets were stolen from us". wear the jackets home next time :)
today all is electronic money, time has pass
 

thunderchief

Senior Member
Yes is I know it's business, but my question is why is Russia in need of a third partner to help fund for it's T-50 project? Why can't they do it all by themselves like China and the US?

Unlike US and China , Russia is looking to make money on fifth generation plane(s) . This is a huge strategic difference , and I wont dwell on it , because it is a topic on itself .

When you get that , you must consider cost of R&D and it this case they are huge . Ideal case for Russia will be if they could find partners who would finance all of the R&D so they (Russians) could buy finished and tested product . this happened with Mig-29 K . In case of PAK FA , Indians financed 50% of the cost and in return they will get some of the technologies Russia does not consider critical to share with close allies (and India and Russia are de facto close allies from the time of Soviet Union) .

What about other 50% ? It would be nice to involve some other countries who could become potential allies in the project . Russia and Brazil are to far from each to become adversaries , so Russia doesn't have to fear of Brazil getting some of their advanced technologies . On the other hand , Russians would benefit enormously if they could sell their equipment to Brazil , which was exclusively Western market until now . And even India would get something , Brazil is not their enemy so they too don't have to fear from them , but sharing experience in using common equipment could actually improve their ties in other areas .
 

SamuraiBlue

Captain
What about other 50% ? It would be nice to involve some other countries who could become potential allies in the project . Russia and Brazil are to far from each to become adversaries , so Russia doesn't have to fear of Brazil getting some of their advanced technologies . On the other hand , Russians would benefit enormously if they could sell their equipment to Brazil , which was exclusively Western market until now . And even India would get something , Brazil is not their enemy so they too don't have to fear from them , but sharing experience in using common equipment could actually improve their ties in other areas .

Geopolitical distance is only half of the equation, you also need to consider economical adversary state like US and Russia which are competing in the natural gas export business.
Russia is pressured to lower their price in order to win over Japan since Russia needs fund and engineering support from Japan in developing the natural gas fields in Siberia.
It's the same situation with Brazil wanting to sell oil to western Europe but require funding in developing their oil field near the mouth of the Amazon river.
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
What a turnaround in mikoyan's fortune. For a while it looked like sukhoi was going to conquer all in the Russian fighter game, and mikoyan was going to be relegated to the status of a has been, like yakovlev.

I think they are still not out of the woods. Mig-29s really haven't received much other orders recently and they are not getting a piece of the 5th generation pie either.

Russia is undoubtedly trying to reduce India's leverage. To be honest, Russia is really not very willing to share its core aircraft design know how with India. But India is currently paying for 50% of the project, and has substantial leverage over the Russians to pry from Russia more technology sharing, and more of the sort of design cooperation that forces Russian aircraft industry to review some of its crown jewels.

So Russia is trying to reduce India's leverage by finding alternatives to Indian financing.

yep and it won't be long until we hear more complaints from Indians regarding how much Russians are actually sharing with them.
 

thunderchief

Senior Member
Geopolitical distance is only half of the equation, you also need to consider economical adversary state like US and Russia which are competing in the natural gas export business.
Russia is pressured to lower their price in order to win over Japan since Russia needs fund and engineering support from Japan in developing the natural gas fields in Siberia.
It's the same situation with Brazil wanting to sell oil to western Europe but require funding in developing their oil field near the mouth of the Amazon river.

Russia doesn't want or need any Japanese involvement in Siberia , exactly because close ties between Japan and US and Japanese pretensions toward Kuril islands . Things may change in the future , but at the present moment there is informal alliance between China and Russia against Japan and US , as we can see from regular Sino-Russian naval exercises .
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Russia doesn't want or need any Japanese involvement in Siberia.
Oh no? Then why did the major state-run Russian Oil Company sign an agreement on June 26, 2012 to have Japan help them develop Siberian oil fields?

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Lignet said:
Japan Oil, Gas and Metals National Corporation (JOGMEC) and Gazprom Neft, a state-run Russian oil company, announced last week an agreement to jointly develop an oil field in eastern Siberia. The field is the Ignyalinsky mining bloc in the northern part of Russia’s Irkutsk Oblast with estimated reserves of 100 million barrels.

JOGMEC will conduct test drilling by the end of 2013 and expects to start production in 2018. Russia plans to complete a pipeline connecting eastern Siberia and the Sea of Japan in November and oil from the field will go through the new pipeline to a port near Vladivostok and then shipped to Japan.

Japan is attempting to diversify its oil supply – it currently obtains more than 90 percent of its oil from the Middle East – and to replace energy it lost after shutting down nuclear power plants due to the Fukushima disaster last year.

In addition, why then did they firm up the deal and sign a more specific corporate agreement on June 24th of this year (2013) to split the profits with 51% to the Russian state-run company, and 49% to the Japanese firm?

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News on Japan said:
Japan Oil, Gas and Metals National Corporation, or JOGMEC, and Gazprom Neft, a major state-run Russian oil company, will jointly develop an oil field in eastern Siberia, the two parties announced Friday.

The Japanese side is expected to hold a 49 percent stake in the project, according to officials.

The project is expected to diversify Japan's oil supply sources, mitigating the impact of the increased reliance on thermal power generation since nuclear power plants nationwide were idled after last year's Fukushima nuclear power plant disaster.

Seems like to me that SamuraiBlue is correct and that Russia does in fact want Japanese help in developing Eastern Siberian Oil Fields, among other nations. Russia is also signing agreements with China and others...which tell you how badly the Russians want the money and the oil...which is also the obvious reason these other countries are involved. They all want to lessen dependence on Mid East and other off shore oil.
 
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thunderchief

Senior Member
Oh no? Then why did the major state-run Russian Oil Company sign an agreement on June 26, 2012 to have Japan help them develop Siberian oil fields?

Read the article . Japan is paying development of one oilfield in order to diversify its oil supply . One oilfield exclusively for Japan - that doesn't mean that Russians need Japan to extract oil from Siberia - they do that for years .

This is purely commercial deal , Russia will profit without much of the investment .

P.S. Btw, similar deal with China :
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SamuraiBlue

Captain
Read the article . Japan is paying development of one oilfield in order to diversify its oil supply . One oilfield exclusively for Japan - that doesn't mean that Russians need Japan to extract oil from Siberia - they do that for years .

This is purely commercial deal , Russia will profit without much of the investment .

P.S. Btw, similar deal with China :
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I don't know how the negotiation between Russia and Japan in returning the occupied Southern Kuril Islands known to Japanese as northern territory but the Russians are anxious in resolving this long driven issue as much as the Japanese showing an unprecedented attitude of concession with Putin himself stating he is wanting a fair resolution so they can sign an actual peace treaty between the two nation so they can discuss the future.
The only reason Russia is making this kind of generous suggestion is because they are losing grounds in exporting natural gas in which they see direct competition with the US in which shale gas and shale oil has already lowering the international prices.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Read the article . Japan is paying development of one oilfield in order to diversify its oil supply . One oilfield exclusively for Japan - that doesn't mean that Russians need Japan to extract oil from Siberia - they do that for years .

This is purely commercial deal, Russia will profit without much of the investment .
The fact is, they are doing it. And it si the State Run Oil concern is doing it, which obviously means the government of Russia is involved and has agreed to it.

Your intial comment indicated ty did not want or need Japan at all.

As I said, the Russians are having numerous countries do this...and they are not doing it to benefit those other countries...they are doing it for their own benefit. Other countries agree to it because they too can benefit. It is a mutual deal...and that is why they have such contracts.

I do not believe anyone ever intended to say that Russia was going to rely on Japan alone for all of Siberia.

If the one oil field is a success...iie.the Russians profit and benefit from it. They will do more.
 
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