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TerraN_EmpirE said:

3)At time of retirement the F117 was 25 years old. The Aircraft were placed in strategic reserve for emergency use in the future if needed, They were not scrapped. They were retired as a cost savings measure and as the majority of there mission was filled. There original planed date of Retirement was 2011. It was moved to early retirement by 2008 to free up 1.4 Billion Dollars for more F22's in 2005.
The F117 shoot down Does not back your claim that.

It shows that in some conditions Existing Radar systems can "Stealth Kill" but the main reason for this was and remains and will remain that the Stealth aircraft operated to closely to the Radar Emitter. As Time goes by Radar and Same systems will be modified to try and counter stealth but it will only do so incrementally over set ranges and as time advances Stealth to advances meaning that we fall back to the arms race of defence vs offence.

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The F-117 was crap and it is easy to see it.

To start aircraft are designed to last for at least 30-40 years, why? aircraft are expensive to design and test, so you want aircraft to last long.

If an aircraft is a maintenance nightmare but it is highly effective then you keep it, the F-22 is such aircraft.
If an aircraft is expensive to maintain, hard to keep it flying and ineffective then you retire it.

the F-117 is advertised as highly effective, is it? no it was not, to replace A-10 was ill suited, to replace F-16s and F-15s was also ill suited, it was a very bad flier, it had bad Aerodynamics, horrible performance, no visibility, and was slow, so as an attack aircraft did not carry a lot of weapons.

So the only supposedly advantage was it was LO, if it was really LO then you can replace 10 F-16s in attack missions with a single F-117, but here comes the trouble, as an attacker needed to remain unseen the whole mission something it could not do, to egress from the combat zone it needed fighter escorts like in 1999, and since it was slow and had bad aerodynamics once seen was cannon fodder.

So a logic action was retire it.

Neither Russia or China are making F-117s type aircraft why? simply speed is life and agility is needed to dodge missiles, the F-22 was designed fast and agile, stealth is only part of the equation, in fact supercruise speed is more important and agility too, Thrust vectoring in F-22 was deemed more important that a low IR measure, F-117 had nozzles that cooled the exhaust gases better but they were not as good for thrust and thrust vectoring.

Speed means you remain very little time targeted, so it means it multiplies your stealth, since F-117 was slow, it was seen longer and was much much easier to target.

S-400 versus F-117 who do you thing will win?

According to Nikolai Beginners publication «Russia to deploy Ka-52 helicopters to Syria» in the magazine «Jane's Defence Weekly», Russia will send to Syria attack helicopters Ka-52, equipped with the new board defense L370 "Vitebsk". Helicopters will ensure the safety of the air base, "Hmeymim", as well as take part in the provision of search and rescue operations. The author of the material at the same time refers to the news agency TASS.

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Sukhoi fulfilled the State Defense Order 2015 on the Su-34 frontline bombers and handed over two aircraft to the Russian Air and Space Forces above the initial plan





Moscow, December 22. Today a pair of Su-34 frontline bombers took off from the airfield of the Sukhoi Company’s branch — Novosibirsk Aircraft Plant, and headed to the place of their deployment at one of the aircraft bases of the Russian Air and Space Forces. Today’s delivery of the Su-34s signifies the fulfillment of the State Defense Order 2015 on those aircraft.

The Sukhoi Company also handed over two aircraft above the initial plan. They will fly to the place of deployment in the coming days. It should be noted, that in 2014 the aircraft plant also exceeded the yearly production plan of the Su-34s.

The Novosibirsk aircraft plant operates with a high efficiency. The State Contract with the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation for the Su-34s supplies to the Russian Air and Space Forces up to the year 2020 guarantees a stable work load of the plant for the coming years and identifies its long-term development prospects. Currently, Su-34s operate successfully in the military and demonstrate high performance.

The features of the Su-34 include, in particular, a flight range increased up to 4000 km, a maximum speed of up to 1900 km/h, and a payload of up to 8 tons. The aircraft has a new weapon system and an air refueling system.

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latest pictures from Vladivostok

B787, it was never meant to replace anything! It was the result of a technology demonstrator project to see if stealth was feasible.
The program began after the the Israelis suffered heavy aircraft losses Against Soviet supplied Air defense systems, the US government ran war games and determined that conventional fighters would suffer such losses if the cold war went hot and that this could have been a strategic threat. So they determined that there only option was to investigate alternative technologies to evade detection. The F117 was developed directly from Have Blue which was first generation LO. The key reason for all its faults was the limited computer science of the mid to late 1970s. The Have Blue proved troubled but it worked. The USAF decided that the advantage in the early 1980s was warranted to produce a small number of filler until they could get B2. F117 was meant to drop nuclear small Nuclear weapons over military and leadership targets in a cold war where both sides were expecting heavy losses.
F117 how was not a white program it was a black program the limited production of the aircraft were under a program called Senior trend. This was because they had prove valid effective enough to justify there active combat use.
YET They were built in the early 1980s with early CAD systems

in 1982 Northrop created the Second Stealth Platform the Tacit Blue which introduced more rounded and conventional lines to stealth as well as another technology the F117 lacked Pave Mover a Low probability of intercept radar system. Tacit Blue proved fairly successful and from it came the greenlight for Senior Sky and Aurora better known as the F22 Raptor and the B2 Spirit and Stealthy series of UAV's.

Neither Russia or China are making F-117s type aircraft why?

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The Reason The Rest of the world is not building F117s the reason why Russia and China are not building there own F117's is that by the Time they jumped into development Stealth was proven.
The The Russians do not need a F117 if they can build a T50. The Chinese Do not need a J20 if they can build a J20. F117 is like the first primate with an opposable thumb It was not pretty and was pretty awkward but a necessary step to modern man. F117 might not have been the best aircraft but it went well and beyond it's original intended mission was proven and bloodied in battle and was in time replaced.
It doesn't prove your Argument infact it proves the opposite. It was a Tech demonstrator that in the mid 1980's early 1990's proved that Shaping,Materials and Tactics could penetrate the best defended Air spaces in the World and Strike.
As For S400 Again Tactics and Technology. It's not a Force field it's a system meant to try and intimidate enemy forces to keep out of areas it's deployed in. It's just a modern means of Castle building and like history as proven for every castle there is a siege engine.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

B787, it was never meant to replace anything! It was the result of a technology demonstrator project to see if stealth was feasible.
The program began after the the Israelis suffered heavy aircraft losses Against Soviet supplied Air defense systems, the US government ran war games and determined that conventional fighters would suffer such losses if the cold war went hot and that this could have been a strategic threat. So they determined that there only option was to investigate alternative technologies to evade detection. The F117 was developed directly from Have Blue which was first generation LO. The key reason for all its faults was the limited computer science of the mid to late 1970s. The Have Blue proved troubled but it worked. The USAF decided that the advantage in the early 1980s was warranted to produce a small number of filler until they could get B2. F117 was meant to drop nuclear small Nuclear weapons over military and leadership targets in a cold war where both sides were expecting heavy losses.
F117 how was not a white program it was a black program the limited production of the aircraft were under a program called Senior trend. This was because they had prove valid effective enough to justify there active combat use.
YET They were built in the early 1980s with early CAD systems

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if you want open a new thread, but so far i do not agree with you, air forces do not retire aircraft as long as they are effective.
They only retire aircraft when they can not fulfill the mission they suppose to do

To understand Russia`s aerospace programs

Nice FFG and potent !

b787 said:

I...so far i do not agree with you, air forces do not retire aircraft as long as they are effective.

They only retire aircraft when they can not fulfill the mission they suppose to do

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No, that is not the case at all.

Aircraft get retired for all sorts of reasons other than them not being able to perform their function.

Politics, budgetary issues, newer technologies, etc. are just a few of the reasons that can lead to cancelation of programs that are otherwise still viable.

As I have said before, B787, you need to watch your tone and your comments to other members of the forum. It is fine to have your opinion...and it fine for you to state it...but when it leads to insults and myopic behavior...that is not fine.

Corvette Project 20386

The series of submarines of Project 677 Lada will be stopped after the Kronstadt and Velikie Luki. This project will be replaced by the Kalina project with an AIP.


The response to the Indian deal for P75i project may be seriously affected, Kalina project did not seem to be ready for 2020.

6 others Kilo announced for the Pacific Fleet

SLBM Bulava