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TerraN_EmpirE said:

We covered this before B737. Stealth is not invisibility its a combination of shaping, materials and tactics to camouflage. The F117 kept using the same routes. All the locals had to do was listen for reports of F117 sightings or mysterious aircraft. Then park a Sam sight.

As to the "sudden" retirement of the F117. If it had been the result of the SA3 then why did they wait so long? Could it be oh I don't know... Perhaps because another stealthy aircraft was available for use and carried more weapons? Like say the F22A? And perhaps it was helped because the F117 is a very single mission role aircraft that of penetration bomber and for the past decade + the USAF was dealing with asymmetric warfare against a foe with no Air defense systems and generally speaking Manned aircraft declined.

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If the aircraft was so good why first it was planned to be retired in 2001? why retire the F-117 in 2008? i will give you example`s Argentina flew their Mirage for more than 30 years, the F-117 was retired after only 25 years of its first flight.


Stealth is low observability, but more like a statistical fact, the radars can detect F-117S? it will depend what radar and system, the F-117 was downed and in a very dense air defense system it will need escorts, in fact in 1999 it flew with F-15s escorting F-117s.

watch from minute 33 when they talk about the F-15 and MiG-29 combat over Serbia, they say the F-15s were escorting a F-117
why it was retired? it is simply it is crap, the aircraft was not fast, neither maneuverable or quick and it was detectable

b787 said:

one small detail, what do you expect to hear from the USAF? do you think they do not lie?

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Assertions are not facts. Unless you have evidence can we move on.

b787 said:

First fact in 1999, was Yeltsin`s Russia, Serbia did not receive any help by Russia, so basically Serbia had to modify their old SA-3s to down an aircraft that supposedly was immune to the SA-3.

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One would have to give credit to the Serbs that they improvised and got the upper hand in this instance while the USAF was complacent. Nevertheless stealth is not simply about immunity be it the F-117 or the F-22 and F-35. The VLO profile gives it a tactical advantage in mission planning and flexibility of options. Its RCS makes jamming even more effective. These are facts that are generally not disputed given what is known of VLO, radar capabilities and ECM. It is a reason why Russia and China are spending billions to introduce such capabilities within their services.

Your main point is that the S400 and whatever Russia has in its pipeline makes the F-22/F-35 ineffective. You need to make your case and not simply assertions.

b787 said:

Question 2 when was the F-117 retired and why? we still see F-15s and F-156s and F-18s all are operational but the vaunted F-117 retired why? i mean aircraft that flew in 1970(F-15), 1974 (F-16s) are still flying.

The answer is easy under the air defense umbrella Russia in 2010 could boast the F-117 would not have last, so you do not need a slow, detectable crap that is neither quick or agile, you need a deep penetration fast aircraft like F-22 or thousands of faster slightly more agile and quicker F-35s

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The F-22 and F-35 are much more capable than the F-117. Why don't you just make your case as per your original post and if the F-22 is ineffective against the latest and greatest with the Russians than by simple logic you would have also made the case against the F-117.

Brumby said:

Assertions are not facts. Unless you have evidence can we move on.


One would have to give credit to the Serbs that they improvised and got the upper hand in this instance while the USAF was complacent. Nevertheless stealth is not simply about immunity be it the F-117 or the F-22 and F-35. The VLO profile gives it a tactical advantage in mission planning and flexibility of options. Its RCS makes jamming even more effective. These are facts that are generally not disputed given what is known of VLO, radar capabilities and ECM. It is a reason why Russia and China are spending billions to introduce such capabilities within their services.

Your main point is that the S400 and whatever Russia has in its pipeline makes the F-22/F-35 ineffective. You need to make your case and not simply assertions.


The F-22 and F-35 are much more capable than the F-117. Why don't you just make your case as per your original post and if the F-22 is ineffective against the latest and greatest with the Russians than by simple logic you would have also made the case against the F-117.

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It is not assertions, you simply think stealth works as advertised, i am only saying what the other side says, and they say it does not, the fact the F-117 was downed shows radars do work and in fact there is not such thing like stealth, it is only the technologies that theoretically will work under some conditions and SAMs and Radars are being upgraded so stealth does not work

B787, the reason they were retired was the fact that they were obsolete, the reason that your comparison to Argentina's Mirages is bogus is numbers.
The Mirage was built in significant numbers spare parts and upgrades were available and economical. F117 never entered mass production. 64 units were built 5 were YF117 59 were F117 but none were beyond low rate production, no two F117 were identical or interchangeable in design. So really they had 64 prototypes and no production. Every loss stressed the fleet every flight clocked out more flight hours. Then the F22 entered production and quickly out numbered and out stealthy'd and out armed it.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

B787, the reason they were retired was the fact that they were obsolete, the reason that your comparison to Argentina's Mirages is bogus is numbers.
The Mirage was built in significant numbers spare parts and upgrades were available and economical. F117 never entered mass production. 64 units were built 5 were YF117 59 were F117 but none were beyond low rate production, no two F117 were identical or interchangeable in design. So really they had 64 prototypes and no production. Every loss stressed the fleet every flight clocked out more flight hours. Then the F22 entered production and quickly out numbered and out stealthy'd and out armed it.

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Come on, let us not go beyond too much it will go off topic, but the argument is not bogus, there are 186 F-22s so 64 F-117 are not really replaced by F-22 in terms of numbers, if you think stealth works up to you, but stealth is no panacea, Stealth has limits, and F-117 was slow, flew like a brick, was not maneuverable, carry few weapons and definitively was downed by an obsolete SA-3


The aircraft were relatively young and if they were as good as advertised then made sense to keep them flying, many air forces keep aircraft flying for more than 30 years, F-117 was retired because it was not only obsolete but also it was detectable, a detectable aircraft with such bad aerodynamics will not survive

United Engine Corporation (UEC) is preparing for the creation of high-thrust turbofan engines for advanced civil aircraft. As told at the last in the Central Institute of Aviation Motors (CIAM) Conference "Aero Engines of XXI Century" Deputy General Designer of the corporation Victor Belousov, to this end, a member of the JDC Perm company "" OAO is studying the possibility of increasing the gas generator of the new PD-14 engine.

PD-14 with a thrust of 14 tons is designed for Russia's new single-aisle aircraft MS-21. In late October began its flight tests on a flying laboratory IL-76LL.

According to the chief designer of the engine family of PD in the company "" OAO Igor Maximov, in the line of big motors base is supposed to make the PD-35 with a thrust of 35 tons. For the new plant is expected to scale gasifier from the PD-14 with the addition of an extra step at the outlet of the high pressure compressor . As a result, the number of compressor stages and turbine PD-35 will be 9 + 2, the diameter of the inlet to the compressor will rise to 815 mm compared to 582 mm for PD-14. It is assumed that the diameter of the fan motor will make a new 3100 mm, length of the engine - more than 8 m, weight - about 8 tons.

On the basis of the PD-35 will be developed with a thrust power plants 28 (PD-28) and 24 m (PD-24). The first two engines planned to offer two options and chetyrehdvigatelnyh promising widebody long-haul aircraft, the last - to haul widebody aircraft and long-term heavy military transport aircraft, it was noted in the presentation of the representative of the "" OAO.

Possible applications of the new engine could be a wide-body aircraft, which are jointly developing the Russian United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) and the Chinese corporation COMAC. It is expected that the aircraft seating capacity up to 280 people. C929 with the working title will make its first flight in 2021 and will be commissioned in 2025

Victor Belousov said that similar work on the high-thrust engines lead to other enterprises of the holding - in Samara company "Kuznetsov". It considered the possibility of the development of power plants thrust up to 35 tonnes on the basis of the gas generator of the turbojet engine NK-32, which is now installed at strategic bombers Tu-160. According to Belousov, both options are considered as a promising power unit with direct drive and driven through the gearbox.

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Su-35 latest deployment, two new Su-35S in Vladivostok

b787 said:

Come on, let us not go beyond too much it will go off topic, but the argument is not bogus, there are 186 F-22s so 64 F-117 are not really replaced by F-22 in terms of numbers, if you think stealth works up to you, but stealth is no panacea, Stealth has limits, and F-117 was slow, flew like a brick, was not maneuverable, carry few weapons and definitively was downed by an obsolete SA-3

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Oh for goodness sake your the one who dragged us here.
1) We should all know that Stealth is not a myth but then again not a cure all either. It's Electromagnetic Camouflage Composed of materials, Shaping and Tactics. The F117 that was shot down was flying the same route over and over again It was only a matter of time before some one noted it. The closer the range to the Radar emitter the cleaner the return. The F117 came to close to the Emitter and as a result fell into the bullseye.
2) 186 F22's can easily take the mission of the 59 F117's Remember that F117 only had one mission, Penetrating strikes. It could only carry 2x 2,000 Pound bombs. F22 is faster stealthier and can not only carry 2x 1000 pound bombs but also carry that load with 4 air to air missiles. If that's not enough for you There is the B2 which could carry 16x 2,000 pound bombs, And Finally by 2009 The USAF had the JASSM missile which could penetrate stealthily and strike the same targets.

b787 said:

The aircraft were relatively young and if they were as good as advertised then made sense to keep them flying, many air forces keep aircraft flying for more than 30 years, F-117 was retired because it was not only obsolete but also it was detectable, a detectable aircraft with such bad aerodynamics will not survive

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3)At time of retirement the F117 was 25 years old. The Aircraft were placed in strategic reserve for emergency use in the future if needed, They were not scrapped. They were retired as a cost savings measure and as the majority of there mission was filled. There original planed date of Retirement was 2011. It was moved to early retirement by 2008 to free up 1.4 Billion Dollars for more F22's in 2005.
The F117 shoot down Does not back your claim that.

b787 said:

there is not such thing like stealth, it is only the technologies that theoretically will work under some conditions and SAMs and Radars are being upgraded so stealth does not work

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It shows that in some conditions Existing Radar systems can "Stealth Kill" but the main reason for this was and remains and will remain that the Stealth aircraft operated to closely to the Radar Emitter. As Time goes by Radar and Same systems will be modified to try and counter stealth but it will only do so incrementally over set ranges and as time advances Stealth to advances meaning that we fall back to the arms race of defence vs offence.

b787 said:

one small detail, what do you expect to hear from the USAF? do you think they do not lie?

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So the USAF is lying about the effectiveness about stealth fighters, but Russian claims about their ability to detect & intercept are not?

OT
I expect that the maintenance costs of the F-117 was quite excessive as it was the first operational aircraft with these low observable materials. Reason enough to take them out of service.

Russian CAW

Mig-29K/KUB
24 in order 14 delivered by the 100th Separate Shipborne Fighter regiment re activated based
temporarily to Yeisk/ Kouban where is a training base directly rattached to Navy HQ with a ski jump ( other base equiped Saki in Crimea ) normaly after based to Severomorsk-3/Northern Fleet.

This Rgt was stand down in 1992, created in 1986 and before Navy have her Su-33 had trained to Saki the first pilots with Su-27, Mig-29 and L-39, Mig-29 ( 3 sqns ) coz was initialy planned Soviet CV get Su-33 and Mig-29 finaly with end of Cold War only the 279 Rgt with Su-33/Su-25UTG was created.


Su-33
And the 279th Separate Shipborne Fighter regiment based to Severomorsk-3 on Su-33/Su-25UTG he have 21 and 5 in 3 sqns keep her Su-33 up to 2020 maybe 2025 in addition of Mig-29.
Deploy in general 14 Su-33 on the Kuznetsov.

delft said:

OT
I expect that the maintenance costs of the F-117 was quite excessive as it was the first operational aircraft with these low observable materials. Reason enough to take them out of service.

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F-117 was retired not in 2001 but in 2008 the last was 19 years for save money for new F-22 at this time about 100 delivered,
A Sqn to Tyndall, 1st FW full and begin to equip the 3th FW .
For save money only no matters for her performances.

TE point good and B787 you insist too...