Russian efforts to sell the Su-57/PAK FA to China

Phead128 said:

China will never buy Su-57E, because it has two stealth fighter programs, and even India abandoned the PAKFA program citing inferior stealth design and poor engines.

Why China not throw an extra $3-4 billion on WS-15 engine program rather than squadron of Su-57E?

Just Russians talking for marketing, doesn't mean China wants. China has said nothing, for good reason.

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I would say the WS-15 is more of a reliability issue at present, to get the thrust they are looking for, they will have to "turn up the heat", and who knows? I think they've been very impressed with the Su-35 and OVT, the Su-57 is actually a very high performance airplane, and with the F117s they are getting better performance than older Flankers...

So you are more than likely correct, but who knows, China has a long and prosperous history operating Russian designed military equipment, and like those Su-35's, it is capability right now, not some where down the road...

So if it was merely a question of throwing money at the WS-15, that would have happened a long time ago...

Brumby said:

I think your choice of word "seem" is spot on. A lot of claims can be misinformation and likely remain unverifiable for a long time. With engine, I think it is rather binary, either you have it or not. - there is less mirage room.

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Well One fact I feel is concrete is that SU57 is more in need of an outside investment than the J20. I say this as the Russians have had Su57 for longer yet have a smaller fleet. The Russians continue to drag their feet on procuring these fighters well the PLAAF has declared IOC and seems to be opening the throttle so to speak. Well still having a second A SECOND Fifth Gen fighter in the background.
Russia was traditionally the lead of these two nations in technical development.

Air Force Brat said:

Here you go, apart from the several benefits that both the Chinese and the Russians would derive from the actual purchase/sale and joint development,

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these two are so far along and J20 production is leading in such a way that it seems like the Russians need the infusion more. J20 could use the engines sure but it seems like Su57 would be taking more of the J20 than J20 of SU57.

“Air Force Brat said:

there are two intangibles that might drive this purchase/sale,?

#1 If China were able to help with the Su-57 development/deployment, that would allow the Chinese to deflect a significant amount of US presence in the East, onto the Russians in Europe and the Arctic....

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They already have that.

“Air force Brat” said:

#2 and honestly in the interim even more gratifying?? it would be like sticking their finger in India's eye, the Russians are still very ticked off by the Indian diss of the Su-57, and no doubt the Chinese would enjoy circumventing India's purchase of the Su-57, while building their own capability in the South China Sea/East China Sea.

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India already walked away from Su57. They could come back but the fact is they were never going to get the degree of access they wanted. The Russians will not share source code on this. But on the other side of this the Chinese may have the stronger system but the Russians will not admit that. They have a national pride here. in the past Russia and China’s relation was in that line up with China being the client.
Given how the Russian’s have related to there former clients and satellites. They will never accept second fiddle.
there are two intangibles that might drive this purchase/sale,?

#1 If China were able to help with the Su-57 development/deployment, that would allow the Chinese to deflect a significant amount of US presence in the East, onto the Russians in Europe and the Arctic....

#2 and honestly in the interim even more gratifying?? it would be like sticking their finger in India's eye, the Russians are still very ticked off by the Indian diss of the Su-57, and no doubt the Chinese would enjoy circumventing India's purchase of the Su-57, while building their own capability in the South China Sea/East China Sea.

In fact it might be China stringing Russia along, as they would no doubt have significant veto power over future Russian arms sales to India...

with India's track record, I really don't think they will be able to buy the F-35, I could be wrong?? but it comes down to a matter of "history"??[/QUOTE]
In fact it might be China stringing Russia along, as they would no doubt have significant veto power over future Russian arms sales to India...[/quote] Indian and Russian MIC is attached at the knee but only by an elastic band. If India feels it’s not getting what it wants from Russia they will go to the west. BAE, Dassault, Lockheed Martin, Boeing, IAI, SAAB, EADS all have wears offered to India. South Korea, Britain and France have fifth and fifth and a half on track and could spin off or help feed a Indian fifth gen.

with India's track record, I really don't think they will be able to buy the F-35, I could be wrong?? but it comes down to a matter of "history"??

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Lockheed Martin has made overtures. I almost guarantee that India and Pakistan when they get fifth gens will be watered down models anyway.


The Russians fall out with India some could say drew deep blood from the program but it seems to me like India felt they were being strung along. They were trying to get into the heart of the program and spin off a machine to meet their wants yet were thwarted at every turn.
Russia was using Indian funds to pay for Pakfa. Yet even with that they were lagging behind. Russia will sample foreign tech even use for short time but making Chinese firms the avionics life blood of Su57 is beyond a bridge to far. Russia’s hope when it showed off Su57 was I suspect to sell to Both sides of the Sino/Hindu divide. However the PRC said “ That’s nice and all but we have our own in the works.” And that stuck a hard blow to their plans.
The Relationship between the Forbidden City and the Kremlin is a balancing act between Prima Donna. The Russians think they are in the spot light and will not accept anything but that. The Chinese know they are in the spot light and the heart of the show. Neither will accept being the stand in and every solo is a competitive duet. If one feels the other is getting the lime light more, Sino Soviet split.

The day Chinese buys an Indian-reject fighter is the day I shout Reiwa Banzai!! and commit ritual seppuku disembowlment in front of Yasukuni.

The Indians didn't buy the Su-35 either. If the Su-57 meets Chinese needs they'll buy it.
Right now I don't think the fighter is good enough.

Seeing how Russia duped India into investing in the ill-fated FGFA program and ended up essentially milking New Delhi for a vaporware project, the ONLY way that China would accept this offer is if Moscow permitted China to license-build every single component of the aircraft including the Izdeliye 30 engines at a deeply-discounted price.

And this doesn't make any mention of the other issues that comes with inducing a redundant aircraft of Russian origin, such as incompatible avionics & weaponry, overlap of roles with the J-20, and so forth.

If the money is there and doesn't take away from the production of domestic 5th gen, then Su-57 would be useful for DACT and to get a look at what the latest that the Russian industry is willing to produce may be, as well as to provide some additional variety of 5th gen that would particularly be useful during peacetime flights outside of Chinese airspace where you might not want to expose the signature of larger numbers of domestic 5th gens like J-20. Essentially only enough for a brigade or two at most.


Otherwise there's no particular reason to buy Su-57. Obviously if China does buy it, it will only be after it is somewhat mature and proven. China's not going to be contributing to its development.

Bltizo said:

If the money is there and doesn't take away from the production of domestic 5th gen, then Su-57 would be useful for DACT and to get a look at what the latest that the Russian industry is willing to produce may be, as well as to provide some additional variety of 5th gen that would particularly be useful during peacetime flights outside of Chinese airspace where you might not want to expose the signature of larger numbers of domestic 5th gens like J-20. Essentially only enough for a brigade or two at most.


Otherwise there's no particular reason to buy Su-57. Obviously if China does buy it, it will only be after it is somewhat mature and proven. China's not going to be contributing to its development.

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The avionics and electronics warfare package of the "Export" version of Su-57 will likely be mutilated and amputated. The outward stealth appearance can easily be reverse engineered using photographs + supercomputer algorithms for stealth. I don't know what useful information China can glean from this.

Also, the J-31 would be an excellent DACT fighter since it literally resembles an F-35 (the most likely adversary over the Korean peninsula or East China Sea) and if J-20 needs to tango with a maneuverable Sukhoi, it can go up against Su-35, that's good enough to resemble Su-57 in close range combat.

Bltizo said:

If the money is there and doesn't take away from the production of domestic 5th gen, then Su-57 would be useful for DACT and to get a look at what the latest that the Russian industry is willing to produce may be, as well as to provide some additional variety of 5th gen that would particularly be useful during peacetime flights outside of Chinese airspace where you might not want to expose the signature of larger numbers of domestic 5th gens like J-20. Essentially only enough for a brigade or two at most.


Otherwise there's no particular reason to buy Su-57. Obviously if China does buy it, it will only be after it is somewhat mature and proven. China's not going to be contributing to its development.

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I thought stealth fighters fly with Lunesburg lens (e.g. radar reflectors) during peace-time for safety purposes (alerting civilian aircraft) and security purposes (masking the true RCS signature).
F-22 and F-35 regularly fly with Lunesburg lens over Korean peninsula, and only reason why Su-30MKI detected J-20 in Tibet was because it was flying in peace-time mode with Lunesburg lens to amplify it's RCS signature.

I have to agree with the argument that the Su-57 offers nothing, with the possible exception of the Izdeliye 30 engine.

The Su-35S had superior kinematics compared to the closest Chinese counterpart, the J-11D, and its supposed airframe enhancements were also something that SAC couldn't replicate on the J-11 series.

With the advent of modernizing Chinese avionics, weaponry, and engines, there is nothing on the 57 that the PLA would risk complicating logistical issues for.

Phead128 said:

The day Chinese buys an Indian-reject fighter is the day I shout Reiwa Banzai!! and commit ritual seppuku disembowlment in front of Yasukuni.

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Nah! don't do that, this is a mental exercise, and besides that, you're looking at this all wrong.

if I could drive a Camaro I built that was OK, or buy a nice Ferrari for the same money, I'd buy the Ferrari!

The Russians really did not want to share their toy with the Indians?? I would imagine like being married, it all started out real sweet, then somebody dink's around with you, and you get ticked off... I'd guess it was an "ego" deal on both sides....

The Russians aren't going to play games with the Chinese, and even though they have had issues in the past, with the US ramping up our defense industry, the Chinese and the Russians know they need one another to compete...

I wasn't so much talking about China bankrolling the Su-57, as much as helping the Russians get this airplane up to production standard, the purchase of 24 to 48 Su-57's would provide China with another layer of air superiority aircraft in the near term....so this would be a win-win among friends.....

Biscuits said:

Cost of J-20: 120 million $

Cost of J-31: 70 million $

Cost of Su-57: 40-50 million $

Based on that, Su-57 doesn’t need any additional merit to already be considered a serious contender.

Besides, the plane will proliferate, so having some would be useful for training purposes.

The main flaw of the Su-57 is that it has not made up it’s mind to use stealth or maneuverability. However, that flaw can easily be mitigated by pairing it up with J-20s, the same way J-20s would be paired by up with 4.5gen otherwise.

Finally, like the Flanker design, it would have high upgrade potential. While the J-31 is stuck with smaller WS-13 engines, which are not revolutionary, an upgraded Su-57 can benefit from J-20’s engines. A larger design also means more room for avionics and eventual sensor upgrades.

Even if a comprehensive contract is not signed, China still has good reason to get a handful for training purposes, like it was done with Su-35.

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That price tag is highly skeptical, considering that that was the quoted price tag for the T-50 not the production version of the Su-57, moreover that price was quoted near 8 years ago. And that is a domestic price tag, not an export one.
Proliferation is another issue too, seeing as the Su-57 has not even seen active service with the Russian Air Force beyond a handful of mismatched prototypes, it is unlikely that China will want to sink any sum of money on a tentative project.
The pairing up with the J-20 is another issue as well, why should China get another 5th gen fighter when it already has one of its own that fulfills all of the same functions. Once the J-20 gets the uprated engine it's maneuverability will receive a substantial boost as well.

So barring a handful for training, it is unlikely that China will get the Su-57.