Reply The greatest military strategist in Chinese history?

solarz said:

Chinese medicine isn't crap, it's just that the useful stuff tends to get mixed up with the superstitions. Like this time I was having stomach troubles and went to see a TCM practitioner. The medicine he prescribed was very effective, but he insisted on reading my palm as part of his diagnosis...

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I agree. On the application level, Chinese medicine works because it is a collection of all the experience and observation from all the practitioners. As I mentioned before, my dad had a surgery with only acupuncture as anesthesia. I personally would have no problem taking Chinese medicine, which I have done.

However, with that said, on a scientific level, Chinese medicine is a complete mess. Like you said, it is based on superstition and pseudo-science. The main foundation behind Chinese medicine is Qi and Jing Mai, which are similar to nervous system and circulatory system, but different. Until now, human anatomy, which is a very well developed field, cannot find any shred of evidence of Qi and JingMai.

Also, the efficacy of Chinese medicine is just like how you are saying it, based almost solely on personal testimony. "I got this illness and this formula cured it" We never hear the bad part of it. How many people could not be cured and how many actually got worse or even killed by this formula. The statistics is almost non-existent.

We all know about the placebo effect. No Chinese medicine has been tested via the double blinded system. How do we know that patients got better because of the actual effect of this formula or simply because of the placebo effect?

Until now, we have no idea what the active ingredient is each formula. It might contain thousands of chemicals, which might have opposite effect on things and counter each other. Once at a digestive disease conference, I saw a poster presentation on the topic of Chinese medicine. They were trying to use modern biochemistry to test a Chinese medicine formula. And they got weird and sometimes conflicting data. I asked them what was the active ingredient. And they said they didn't know, it could be thousands. So far, they could only identify about a hundred of them. I then asked them what the main ones that they have found were. They told me a couple chemicals. I was confused even more because some of those chemicals actually have opposite effect on cell signaling that they were testing. When I asked them about this, they looked as confused as I did... that tells you where Chinese medicine stands.

I'm not totally discounting Chinese medicine. IMHO, if they want to develop Chinese medicine as a science, they need to totally scrap the current system and start anew.

vesicles..

Chinese medicine works well on some illness, but not all. Certainly not on surgical, virus and bacteria related medical condition. How far do you think herds can cure ?

1) Take serious inflamed sorethroat for instant.. go to a western GP and they will give you anti-biotics, lozenges, gurgles and ask you to drinks plenty of water and hope for the best.. for days to weeks. With Chinese herbal cocktail (sour and stinks like you never believe).. you will feel better the every next day.

2) Take piles haemorrhoids which I suffers often since a kid. Go to a Western GP and they will give you butter inserts, pain killer, donuts or when it's big enough - out came "you might want to consider surgery". Either option, you will suffer like a tortured iraqi prisoner for week/s. At the age of 25, I was pushed into a chinese sinseh, and was given a bottle of tiny pills, and was asked to take 12 of those brown/black twice a day after a plain meal. The swell have subsided after a night's sleep and by the second day was completely gone. But because of the abrasions bleeding before, I only needs to wait for the wound of my a-hole to heal. I have been taking the pills for 15 years now, and workd effectively every time.

3) Cough.. I'm a single pack smoker, and I gets acute bronchitis often, dry coughs or from common cold. Some are long drawn battles that last weeks that does not seems to go away. Lost of voice, cough like you might spit out parts of your lungs. Western gp mostly gives you cough suppressant.. that don't seems effective in the short run - until you vomit out a whole bucket load of phlegm. While.. Now I'm taking Chinese cough syrup when dry cough starts to appear and it's gone the next day, and it works every time. It seems there are different brews for green and brown phlegms. The green phlegm condition usually takes a little longer, due to Cold.

4) Common Cold... did you know that chinese herbal drinks treats sore throat as well as Common cold. Apparently, Cold usually comes with sore throat, if it doesn't, the Chinese sinseh simply took out the black slumpy stuff, and the herbal drinks turns out to be a nice beverage.

Ask a western medical researcher what is the medical element of ginseng, and they will say there isn't any.. but those who use ginseng knows that isn't true. That said, I certainly will not go to a Chinese Sinseh for cancer and the likes.

mobydog said:

vesicles..
4) Common Cold... did you know that chinese herbal drinks treats sore throat as well as Common cold. Apparently, Cold usually comes with sore throat, if it doesn't, the Chinese sinseh simply took out the black slumpy stuff, and the herbal drinks turns out to be a nice beverage.

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I have this weird cough thing going on every time when I get a cold or flu. While all the other symptoms go away in about a week, I would continue coughing for about two months after that. I've tried everything I can think of, including Chinese medicine, like drinking herbal powder/herbal pasty thingy. So far, nothing works. I still have to endure that nagging cough every time after I get a cold/flu. I've also tried steaming Chinese pears with bird nest and rock sugar. It's not working either. I guess I would be one of those negative data points. And this is what I'm saying. People always talk about how well some formulation works. You hardly hear any of the negative stuff. Some one has got to start doing statistics on it.

mobydog said:

Ask a western medical researcher what is the medical element of ginseng, and they will say there isn't any.. but those who use ginseng knows that isn't true. That said, I certainly will not go to a Chinese Sinseh for cancer and the likes.

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I would say it could be the placebo effect. In other words, you can give them a sugar pill and tell them it is Ginseng. You could get the same medicinal outcome. That's why we have the double blind tests. But that doesn't stop me from brewing the famous Ginseng/brown sugar soup whenever I suspect that I could be getting a cold. I don't care if it is a placebo effect or not. As long as I don't get a cold, I am willing to do whatever. Even if it is my own mind playing tricks, all the power to it!!

Chinese medicine is an interesting thing. I know people who hate it with all their guts, like my parents, and those who worship it with all their hearts, like my in-laws. You can imagine what happens when these people meet... And I witness the outcome of the meeting several times a year. On one side, my parents would argue how un-scientific the Chinese medicine is while on the other side, my in-laws would list how many people they know have been cured by Chinese medicine. You have no idea what it is like being stuck in the middle... My wife and I usually stay out of the way when this type of argument begins. But in private, I've trying to convert my wife. So far, I think I've done a good job since she now begins to talk with people about statistics and placebo effects

P.S. watch out, I'm trying to convert you guys too

vesicles said:

We all know about the placebo effect. No Chinese medicine has been tested via the double blinded system. How do we know that patients got better because of the actual effect of this formula or simply because of the placebo effect?

Until now, we have no idea what the active ingredient is each formula. It might contain thousands of chemicals, which might have opposite effect on things and counter each other. Once at a digestive disease conference, I saw a poster presentation on the topic of Chinese medicine. They were trying to use modern biochemistry to test a Chinese medicine formula. And they got weird and sometimes conflicting data. I asked them what was the active ingredient. And they said they didn't know, it could be thousands. So far, they could only identify about a hundred of them. I then asked them what the main ones that they have found were. They told me a couple chemicals. I was confused even more because some of those chemicals actually have opposite effect on cell signaling that they were testing. When I asked them about this, they looked as confused as I did... that tells you where Chinese medicine stands.

I'm not totally discounting Chinese medicine. IMHO, if they want to develop Chinese medicine as a science, they need to totally scrap the current system and start anew.

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Actually, you just described one of the inherent weaknesses of western medicine. Western medicine relies on treating specific conditions of the human body. It is unable to provide a holistic treatment mainly because it still has a poor understanding of how the human body works. You said that anatomy is well developed. Sure, the parts of it are well known, but how much do we know about how the parts work together? Not very much, I think you'll agree.

That's where Chinese medicine has its strength. Its medicines effectively have had thousands of years of clinical trials on literally billions of patients. Its effectiveness, and the effect of its herbs on the human body, has a much more solid foundation than western medicine.

I also think you're wrong on the statistics part. While I'm not in the field, my mother was a doctor in China, and she told me that she had to study something of Chinese medicine (even though she was trained in western medicine). The field of chinese medicine is very well researched in China, and I'm sure you can find statistics if you look hard enough. It is, by no means, an "alternative" medicine in China.

And one more thing, placebo effects have been well understood by ancient chinese doctors for millenia. There was a story about one famous doctor (I forget the name) who was tasked with helping two women deliver their babies. To one woman he prescribed some medicine, and to the other, he prescribed maple leaf with sugar. Both women delivered their children successfully, and when people asked why the doctor prescribed such different medicines to the two women, he answered: "The first woman was having real difficulties, while the second woman was fine and only needed a little reassurance."

vesicles...

what's with you .. ginseng - placebo effect ?

Common now, I don't know what kind of ginseng you are taking. But my family buys Korean ones. After brew, the very first effect you could notice is that your body heats up. I don't think my mind can control that. So what's the element for the effect ?

Ginseng does have bioactive moieties, the difficult part is determining which parts are the effective ones and which are inert.

vesicles said:

P.S. watch out, I'm trying to convert you guys too

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I'm sure there are somethings science can't yet tell but acupuncture I feel maybe legit for muscle cramps and strains. Initially I was skeptical about acupuncture but my parents forced me to go and it worked! A had a similar neck/back problem a year later but it didn't work a second time same physician and treatment too. It doesn't make sense b/c the 2nd time I did believe it but it doesn't work but the 1st time when I didn't want to do it worked. ??? But logical of pressure and stress and placing needles does make sense though the actually science may not.

P.S. What do you think about the study that placebos are getting more effective?

In4ser said:

I'm sure there are somethings science can't yet tell but acupuncture I feel maybe legit for muscle cramps and strains. Initially I was skeptical about acupuncture but my parents forced me to go and it worked! A had a similar neck/back problem a year later but it didn't work a second time same physician and treatment too. It doesn't make sense b/c the 2nd time I did believe it but it doesn't work but the 1st time when I didn't want to do it worked. ??? But logical of pressure and stress and placing needles does make sense though the actually science may not.

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Maybe it was similar in symptoms, but not the same cause?

P.S. What do you think about the study that placebos are getting more effective?

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You know what? Modern medicine does NOT make enough use of the placebo effect. You know those Q-ray bracelets? People criticize it for being a scam, but it's actually a very smart application of the placebo effect.

Another thing I don't understand: if fake drugs can have placebo effects, why don't real drugs? Wouldn't you expect real drugs to have both physiological and psychological benefits? Shouldn't those benefits stack?

Seemed like now we are into Chinese Medicine.ff Actually I could give you guys a long lecture on chinese medicine (my resume would be, to stay with a would be chinese medicine doctor when I was in Uni for two years and working in a chinese herbal shop for a few months after my graduation from uni and couldn't get a job).

But I would get that far in because it is ff

As for someone asking about the acupuncture thingy... I have this theory behind how it work... acupuncture actually is not just by punching needle into the body, infact a doctor had to turn and vibrate the needle once it was in. It is to 'disturb' the blood and encourage it flow either faster or slower. Anyway, the real thing behind is deeper than what I have said, but it is quite good with blood clod or stuck in the veins.

We could start a new thread to talk about Chinese medicine if anyone is interested (the only requirement is that we must be more familiar with Chinese terms as many of the words will be in Chinese and it is really difficult to express in English. And I doubt alot of people in this forum will be very interested in it.):china:

in post independance zimbabwe this kind of info is top secret but i can safely say we have some of the best in the world. DRC was undersiege or rather the rebels assisted by european mercenaries were hours away of literally taking over the country and zim soldiers stopped them