Reply The greatest military strategist in Chinese history?

c721254841 said:

Qi Men Dun Jia is not astrology, you say yes because you do not understand the ancient Chinese wisdom, Qi Men Dun Jia is a complex spatio-temporal model, if you go to China to be able to find people to prove his authenticity. Strategies for the future of humanity will definitely change from the physical world to the time and space.

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I personally know many non-Chinese who swear by Qi Men Dun Jia and many true Chinese who think it's a joke. It's a personal opinion. Just because I don't believe it, it doesn't mean I don't understand and appreciate ancient Chinese wisdom. You should not assume that anyone who don't agree with everything our ancestors said don't know what they are talking about...

Yes, it is a statistical model. Its scientific merit has yet to be proven. If you ask any statistician, they will tell you that this Qi Men thing is a joke. That's why no one is actually using it for real-world applications. The legend says it can predict the weather. Do you find any modern-day Chinese meteorologists who actually use Qi Men Dun Jia to predict the weather? At most, it is considered as "soft science", which means it sounds like science, but cannot withstand the actual rigorous scientific process.

Also a model is just what it is, a model. You should not take it too seriously. A model is derived to explain a phenomenon. Just because it sometimes can predict the future, it doesn't mean that it is a valid one. Example: ancient people thought lunar eclipse was caused by a dog in the heaven eating the moon. So they hypothesized that if this was true, they can save the moon by scaring the dog away. So they yelled to the sky and hit the drums. And guess what? The moon came back! So on the surface, the hypothesis/model was a correct one. They scared the dog away. hence the moon eclipse was caused by a dog eating the moon. or is it? This is a typical example of soft science. And Qi Men Dun Jia is exactly that!

c721254841 said:

Shang people had been in the construction of the temple to worship the Yellow Emperor, and you think they would be a non-existent, or those who can not do

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People built temples for many divine entities. It doesn't mean that all of those are real. We have thousands of dragon temples all over China. Can you find a dragon, even a fossil of one, for me? As I mentioned before, time can changes things. History can become legend, which can become myth. things can grow out of proportion as time passes and as the info is passed around. A hero might have killed one tiger. After a while, it may become something like a demi-god came down from the heaven and killed a thousand tigers sent by the devil, etc. And of course, winners write history. We know the Yellow Emperor won. And we also know that ancient Chinese rulers liked to make people believe that they were gods or sons of heaven. If you put two together, it would not be hard to imagine that some of these legends might be fabricated by the Yellow Emperor and his followers to convince people to follow them.

BTW, if you can find a temple actually built in the Shang dynasty, please let people know. It will be a find equivalent of the Terra cotta soldiers. And you will be become famous overnight. Why? Well, 'til now the only things people can find that can be definitely linked to the Shang dysnaty are pieces of pots and plates and bowls.

c721254841 said:

With regard to Zhuge Liang, if not how a good military strategists have the ability to help build energy and Wei and Liu Bei Wu Shu resistance. There Zhuge Liang's strategy to be in the Three Kingdoms and other non-fiction history books have recorded, the author of Romance of Three Kingdoms, "Luo Guanzhong's Romance of Three Kingdoms, also verified to write a lot of historical data, not fabricated out of thin air.

However, when more than three great strategist Zhuge Liang, there are many.:rofl::rofl:

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I'm not denying the greatness of Zhuge Liang, which was written in history. however, his contribution in the military success of Shu was greatly exaggerated. This was evident if the fact that before Ming dynasty, Zhuge Liang was little known. It was Luo Guanzhong's novel that made him famous. And I agree that Luo did not fabricate thing out of thin air. he simply manipulated historical facts and gave all the credit to Zhuge Liang. this is kind of what Dan Brown has been doing in his books as well. If you look up things, you'll find that everything he said sort of happened, only not exactly in the way he says. This is, I think, why, the 3 Kingdom has been successful. It's based on history, but not exactly. This is also why he named the novel a romance, meaning not exactly historical facts and he made up things...

c721254841 said:

Said, "wise" is a good administrator's statement is also wrong, in fact, "wise" is a failed manager, recorded in the Three Kingdoms, "Shu" are internal contradictions within the generals, "Zhao 'In fact, Zhuge Liang will not be reused , Zhuge Liang will not be the best thing is the failure of management, all the big and small are You Taqu resolved, so that the final overworked been exhausted, but than the "wise" older a lot of "Sima Yi" was able to in the "wise" after the death of can lead troops to attack Shu.

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I think what you are trying to say is that you don't think Zhuge Liang was a good administrator since there was much internal struggle in Shu and he could not beat Sima Yi and that he worked himself to death...

Well, again, you are basing everything on the novel. Again, even the author of the novel himself admit that many things in the novel were made up. Why? He named it "The romance of the 3 Kingdoms". You have to look at the real history. In Sichuan province, many archeological findings show that Zhugo Liang was the one who came up with the political and economic plans that allowed Shu to be powerful enough to become equivalent of Wei and Wu and become one the 3 Kingdoms

c721254841 said:

Do not agree with what you say the emperor's strategic approach to a very primitive to say the emperor with the "Chi You," when the fighting will use "Compass." Training will also help to live the fighting beast.

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I am truly amazed at how seriously you believe this stuff. The hard archeology shows that compass wasn't invented 'til Han dynasty (some even say Song dynasty). And training the beasts? How did people know that. The earliest form of communication on the land that we now call China started in the Shang dynasty, in the form of oracles, or Jia Gu Wen. Yet, the battle between Yellow Emperor and Chi You happened almost a thousand years before that. How accurate do you actually expect it to be? how did people know all the details? Let's stick with hard fact as much as possible and leave the legend and myth where they should be.

I do not want to argue with you whether there is the Yellow Emperor in Chinese history there, and his deeds, as a history of the Chinese people I know at least more than you should, of course, you said let me go to a temple to prove that Shang matter As you go to church and the priest says to go to God and Jesus recruited, or you Jiubu Xin is as absurd as the existence of Jesus.

As for the dragon legend, I know that the Emperor of Japan where there is a specimen.

Is there history of the Yellow Emperor as you and I argue to prove that he exist or not exist? If the Yellow Emperor does not exist, even if the Earth's people are to believe that he exists but he still does not exist.

If he exists, even if the whole world do not believe in, but he was there.

Mao Zedong once said: there is no investigation, no right to speak.

Anything as long as there will certainly have his reason for being. There are many things the naked eye or even the current scientific instruments can not be observed, you can conclude that it does not exist? (Your thoughts are too behind the times)

Qi Men Dun Jia said that with regard to forecasting the weather, and the use of the atomic bomb to attack the ants like.

Even a person who grew up in China, a full picture of which way you want to at least 60 years or more, do you think is suitable used to predict the weather?

Of course, due to differences between Eastern and Western cultures, we must ask you to accept these things very difficult, just as 500 years ago make you believe that, like traditional Chinese medicine.

I just want to tell you: there must be justified, others do not understand the problem, or there is insufficient evidence to refute free before you do.



May be due to my English too bad a result, you can not fully understand what I mean to express, please forgive me. Thanks!

vesicles said:

BTW, if you can find a temple actually built in the Shang dynasty, please let people know. It will be a find equivalent of the Terra cotta soldiers. And you will be become famous overnight. Why? Well, 'til now the only things people can find that can be definitely linked to the Shang dysnaty are pieces of pots and plates and bowls.

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Well there's a little more evidence of the Shang than that, such as the oracle bones and bronze vessels with inscribed records. They have also discovered the undisturbed tomb of the Shang noble woman, Lady Fu Hao, who is the subject of several oracle bones, and provides an excellent cross-reference between the written records and actual people.

I do not want to argue with you whether there is the Yellow Emperor in Chinese history there, and his deeds, as a history of the Chinese people I know at least more than you should, of course, you said let me go to a temple to prove that Shang matter As you go to church and the priest says to go to God and Jesus recruited, or you Jiubu Xin is as absurd as the existence of Jesus.

As for the dragon legend, I know that the Emperor of Japan where there is a specimen.

Is there history of the Yellow Emperor as you and I argue to prove that he exist or not exist? If the Yellow Emperor does not exist, even if the Earth's people are to believe that he exists but he still does not exist.

If he exists, even if the whole world do not believe in, but he was there.

Mao Zedong once said: there is no investigation, no right to speak.

Anything as long as there will certainly have his reason for being. There are many things the naked eye or even the current scientific instruments can not be observed, you can conclude that it does not exist? (Your thoughts are too behind the times)

Qi Men Dun Jia said that with regard to forecasting the weather, and the use of the atomic bomb to attack the ants like.

Even a person who grew up in China, a full picture of which way you want to at least 60 years or more, do you think is suitable used to predict the weather?

Of course, due to differences between Eastern and Western cultures, we must ask you to accept these things very difficult, just as 500 years ago make you believe that, like traditional Chinese medicine.

I just want to tell you: there must be justified, others do not understand the problem, or there is insufficient evidence to refute free before you do.



May be due to my English too bad a result, you can not fully understand what I mean to express, please forgive me. Thanks!

c721254841 said:

I do not want to argue with you whether there is the Yellow Emperor in Chinese history there, and his deeds, as a history of the Chinese people I know at least more than you should, of course, you said let me go to a temple to prove that Shang matter As you go to church and the priest says to go to God and Jesus recruited, or you Jiubu Xin is as absurd as the existence of Jesus.

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First of all, I respect the fact that you are proud of being a Chinese (at least I took it from the way you present yourselves) and know your roots. But there simply are no logic in your saying that just because u are a Chinese means you should know the Chinese history more than other people. There are quite alot of westerners that I know who actually spent full time studying the Chinese history too. ANd I believe they know more than most Chinese in CHina.

As to the existence of Yellow Emperor... well many do believe of his existence... more like a tribal leader. If you look at the map... during his time, China is very different from what it is now... very much smaller. And at his time, other than the battles with Chi You... he also fought Yan Emperor too. THat is a fact and not some story. However I do believe that the battles that occured are highly exagerated.

c721254841 said:

As for the dragon legend, I know that the Emperor of Japan where there is a specimen.

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Regarding the dragon legend... I truely believe there really is a dragon, might not be exactly like the ones that had been described in the text that we are reading. There are a great deal of things that are unknown even till now... and creatures that had been thought to have extincted have been sighted time and again. Dragon according to Chinese legend, mostly appeared near the sea or in the sea... they are the rulers there.

Thus a simple explanation of why no one found any fossil... might be because, the dragon actually died deep in the sea... somewhere.

c721254841 said:

Anything as long as there will certainly have his reason for being. There are many things the naked eye or even the current scientific instruments can not be observed, you can conclude that it does not exist?

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I do agree with you that there are many things that cannot be explained by today's science... many occurrence have occured not just based on naked eyes, cannot be explained.

c721254841 said:

(Your thoughts are too behind the times)

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That is very harsh. You have the right to believe in whatever you want and others have the rights not to believe what you have believed. YOu could not and must not accuse of someone's thoughts being too behind times.

c721254841 said:

Qi Men Dun Jia said that with regard to forecasting the weather, and the use of the atomic bomb to attack the ants like.

Even a person who grew up in China, a full picture of which way you want to at least 60 years or more, do you think is suitable used to predict the weather?

Click to expand...

I have read alot of arguement about this Qi Men Dun Jia thing in this forum. I must admit that I really do not understand the science behind this skill (I think I can call it a skill). However since it had been passed down from ancient time, there must be some logic in it. However you mustn't simply throw it at somebody and say that the whole thing is true and he or she must believe in it.

Well, as far as I understand the Chinese, there are many science that are shrouded in mythology, heaven and earth, fairies and gods. These science holds a lot of truth in it and was studied by alot of western scientists and doctors, but the problem is it is like some magical occurence which actually make it hard for others to believe.

c721254841 said:

Of course, due to differences between Eastern and Western cultures, we must ask you to accept these things very difficult, just as 500 years ago make you believe that, like traditional Chinese medicine.

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If you really think that other people especially the westerners or chinese who are well verse in western cultures do not believe in traditional Chinese Medicine... let me tell you how backward you are.

I studied in Australia - Melbourne for 3 years. One of my roommates studied there too... do you know what he major in? - Traditional Chinese Medicine. It was a joint cause from RMIT to Nanjing University.

If the westerner do not believe in Chinese Medicine, do you think a university run solely by westerners would have a degree course in it?

c721254841 said:

as a history of the Chinese people I know at least more than you should, of course

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Hmmmm..... Just because I live in Texas, it doesn't mean I know nothing about Chinese history. You made comments questioning my knowledge on China a number of times. I was hoping that I could convince you that we know a lot more about China than you think by focusing on discussing some interesting aspects of Chinese history. Sadly, you seemed to ignore these discussions and keep thinking that I am one of those ignorant Westerners. No, I am NOT. My interest in Chinese history started very early and I knew more about Chinese history than most of my history teachers by the time I was about 12. These teachers were Chinese teachers, by the way, since I went to elementary school in China. And I would not be exaggerating when I say that, even now, I know more about Chinese history than average Chinese college graduates. And I would not hesitate to head-and-head with some Chinese history professors on certain topics, which I have done a number of times. hence, it is highly possible that I know more about Chinese history than you do. So let's focus on facts and stop discrediting me simply because of where I live.

c721254841 said:

you said let me go to a temple to prove that Shang matter As you go to church and the priest says to go to God and Jesus recruited, or you Jiubu Xin is as absurd as the existence of Jesus.

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I am not questioning the existence of Yellow Emperor. When you said people have been building temples in the Shang dynasty to worship Yellow Emperor, I questioned the validity of the statement because of an archeological fact that there is NO Shang temple ever been found in China. I am not saying that Shang people weren't building temples. I am only saying that you don't have any solid physical evidence for their worship if Yellow Emperor.

c721254841 said:

As for the dragon legend, I know that the Emperor of Japan where there is a specimen.

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All hearsay. We don't have any evidence of a dragon existing. If you talk about dinosaurs. they went extinct loooooong before we came along. It would be impossible for any of our ancestors to see one.

c721254841 said:

Is there history of the Yellow Emperor as you and I argue to prove that he exist or not exist? If the Yellow Emperor does not exist, even if the Earth's people are to believe that he exists but he still does not exist.

If he exists, even if the whole world do not believe in, but he was there.

Mao Zedong once said: there is no investigation, no right to speak.

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Thanks alot for that quote!!! you made my day. Exactly as Mao said, with no investigation one has no right to speak. That has been exactly my point all along. Again, my point is: you should not consider some historical event as fact when you have NO evidence for it. Everything we say and believe has to be based on facts. If people can simply say whatever they want, how do we identify truth from fiction? Now, this is my question to you. Since you believe that you have the right to speak about the Yellow Emperor, you should present your evidence. And please don't use "people say......." that's not evidence. We need archeological evidence. Before you can find any, please don't say any of those irresponsible things.

c721254841 said:

Anything as long as there will certainly have his reason for being. There are many things the naked eye or even the current scientific instruments can not be observed, you can conclude that it does not exist? (Your thoughts are too behind the times)

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Wow, can you explain why my thoughts are "too behind time". I, personally have not realized that believing in everything people say without any evidence is becoming a new trend... Once again, stop judging people whom you haven't even met. that's very rude.

And yes, we cannot say something doesn't exist simply because we don't have evidence for it, hence the saying "absence of evidence is NOT the evidence of absence". However, you also CANNOT say they exist without any evidence showing they do. When you have no evidence, you cannot say anything about it. That's exactly what I'm trying to tell you. Don't say Yellow Emperor this or that. You have no evidence for it.

c721254841 said:

Qi Men Dun Jia said that with regard to forecasting the weather, and the use of the atomic bomb to attack the ants like.

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How did it predict it? Did it say exactly about the atomic bomb attack? or simply someone is trying to put words in their mouth and interpret what was in the book in a very liberal manner? This is NOT science. It's astrology. Astrology also predicts future and it's got to be pretty good at it too. Otherwise, nobody would believe it. And we have plenty people who believe astrology with all their hearts. how do you differentiate between the two?

c721254841 said:

Of course, due to differences between Eastern and Western cultures, we must ask you to accept these things very difficult, just as 500 years ago make you believe that, like traditional Chinese medicine.

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Again, I probably know more about Chinese history than you do. So quit making comments like that...

And another can of worms has just being opened

Chinese medicine is crap. I say this as a professionally training biochemist/ biophysicist. Yes, Chinese medicine can help people. My dad has personal experience with it. When he was in his mid 30's, he had an operation to take his tonsil out. the doctors used acupuncture to anesthetize him. He says he could feel something is touching his tissues, but feeling no pain. So it works. But as science and something that people can develop and build upon, its foundation is all wrong. It's more art than science. It's a collective experience from all former practitioners and simply observation. that's it. Its theories are like my example of how people came up with the theory of dog eating moon thing. All invalid.

c721254841 said:

I just want to tell you: there must be justified, others do not understand the problem, or there is insufficient evidence to refute free before you do.

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Why do you think they must be justified. Because some people actually believe it? You got to come up with something better than that.

I think I need to clarify a couple things. I agree that modern science cannot explain everything. Just because we don't have any evidence for something, we cannot say that it doesn't exist. However, we also cannot say that some event must exist unless proven otherwise. This is absolutely wrong!! This is exactly the opposite of what science is. Science is that you propose a hypothesis and test the hypothesis by doing experiments or, in the case of archeology/history, find evidence for it. One CANNOT disprove the existence of something. You will have to make sure you search everything corner of the planet to do that. And statistically, that is impossible. It is the job of the person who propose the existence of something/someone to present evidence and show the existence of this said thing. In this case, when someone says Yellow Emperor did this and that, it is your job to show your evidence. What is the archeological find that suggests that Yellow Emperor invented farming, hunting, etc. Where is this "compass" that the Yellow Emperor supposedly used in his battle against Chi You? And other people will not believe you 'til you show the evidence. That is the scientific method. When we cannot find any evidence, we leave it in the "hypothesis" category and discuss as such, a HYPOTHESIS. DO NOT assume it is fact when no one has any evidence for it.ff

c721254841 said:

How are you, I am a Chinese, and my English is not good, I am sorry,

See solarz posts The greatest military strategist in Chinese history? I found that you have very little understanding of Chinese history and has a lot of bias, since the original quote The greatest military strategist in Chinese history? Too long so I re-opened one to explain your some of the issues.

Characters you have mentioned is only a small part of Chinese strategists, some of which are not regarded as great.

China's greatest strategist in the 3000 years ago or earlier, I think the greatest strategist the "Yellow Emperor" He is the first unification of China's monarch, and his book "Yellow Emperor Yin Fu Jing," was the first Art of War books, grandson of the "The Art of War" set forth the basic is "Huang Di Yin Fu Jing" in thinking.

We can talk about "The Art", a grandson of the Warring States period in Chinese history, one of the great strategists, you only know that he's "Art of War" did not know he led the battle, I have a brief look at it, according to ancient history books Sun can be recorded in a group of untrained girls defeated two times the regular army, with 100 soldiers in 3500 to defeat a superpower of that period, because of his "Art of War" is a lot of strategists for future generations to learn, so he was affectionately known as "soldier saint . "

At the same time there are many at that time a great strategist, and some even more than Sun, but left no books, no public works or works so I do not known, more well-known of which are "Guiguzi", "Han Fei Zi," "Mozi", "Zhuang Zi", "Li Si" and so on, there are many I do not remember the name, and Ha ha!

My English is too bad, so you may not fully understand the contents of the posts I wrote I hope you forgive me, if you have any questions please let me know, thank you, good to write this today, and if you want it, I can organize some Chinese strategists for each period, a list of the great, good-bye!

Make it clear that the ancient Chinese strategic approach has reached you (including many Chinese people) can not understand the point, as early as 2,000 years ago, strategists have already mastered the strategic use of time and space, like grandson, Zhuge Liang, Liu Bowen, and so well-versed in these methods, in China, this method is called "Qi Men Dun Jia," the earliest recorded use of this method is the "Yellow Emperor"

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Dude, you play too much Chinese RPGs. 仙剑奇侠传 and 轩辕剑 are NOT valid historical references, sorry to say. The very fact that you think Zhuge Liang was a great military strategist shows how much you're confusing fiction with history. It's also funny how you think magic really exists. If your "Qi Men Dun Jia" really existed, why didn't the Qing army use it against 八国联军 ?

Chinese medicine is crap. I say this as a professionally training biochemist/ biophysicist. Yes, Chinese medicine can help people. My dad has personal experience with it. When he was in his mid 30's, he had an operation to take his tonsil out. the doctors used acupuncture to anesthetize him. He says he could feel something is touching his tissues, but feeling no pain. So it works. But as science and something that people can develop and build upon, its foundation is all wrong. It's more art than science. It's a collective experience from all former practitioners and simply observation. that's it. Its theories are like my example of how people came up with the theory of dog eating moon thing. All invalid.

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Chinese medicine isn't crap, it's just that the useful stuff tends to get mixed up with the superstitions. Like this time I was having stomach troubles and went to see a TCM practitioner. The medicine he prescribed was very effective, but he insisted on reading my palm as part of his diagnosis...