QTS-11 OICW. 5.8 mm Heavy and 20 mm Air Burst.

Some new revelations over at CDF by Hongjian:

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Some interesting things here on that site:

1. The first variant had a 5 round magazine, but the PLA requested the bolt-action system not only because it would be easier to change munition-type, but it also enabled the designers to design single-purpose 20mm grenades, instead of the XM-25, XM-29 and K-11's multi-purpose grenades: This means that each individual airburst grenade has only airburst mode, impact explosion grenade has only impact explosion etc., which increased the explosive load of those grenades as they reduce the room needed for complex electronics. The PLA has hence very high regard for the destructive power of their 20mm airburst grenades during urban battle, which performed better in tests than even hand-grenades and approaching that of infantry mortars (as in higher killing co-efficiency; note that 2nd chart I've posted in reply '76).

2. Due to the single-shot bolt-action system, the soldier can very simply chamber the grenade type he wishes before operation, without playing around with the electronic settings. This increases the reliability of the grenades and reduces the weight of the weapon due to simpler electronics.

3. There are three kind of rounds for the grenade launcher: The conventional impact grenade, the airburst grenade, and the 'secret weapon' - the 'shotgun'-grenade. Latter is described as a round that will unleash a barrage of shrapnels into the forward direction after flying a customized range as set by the user. Think of a small AHEAD round. According to the users, this grenade is devastating in combat and has a high suppression value in close urban battle. Hence, this system is also nicknamed 'three-in-one-launcher'.

4. TOE wise, the standard PLA squad is already divided in two fireteams. Traditionally, it was the RPG fireteam and the Machinegun fireteam. Now, each fireteam will receive one ZH-05 each, raising their overall combat efficiency dramatically.

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Like I said there, this weapon is too long and too heavy; it's about 4.29kg unloaded, but if you change it to having the assault rifle bullpup and put the grenade tube out front, you can probably slash its weight down to 4kg or below. Then you can potentially issue every man in the squad a ZH-05.

Inst said:

Like I said there, this weapon is too long and too heavy; it's about 4.29kg unloaded, but if you change it to having the assault rifle bullpup and put the grenade tube out front, you can probably slash its weight down to 4kg or below. Then you can potentially issue every man in the squad a ZH-05.

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like I said over on CDF, it isn't weight stopping the PLA from equipping every soldier with ZH-05, it is the cost of the equipment.

Furthermore, 4.27 kg unloaded is already a very very light weapon. Consider K11 which is over 6 kg unloaded -- and they have mags for both assault rifle and grenade launcher to add on, whereas ZH-05 only has the former, so ZH-05's combat weight will be far below K11.
So quite frankly, I think saying ZH-05 is heavy is absurd, when we look at the competition.


Overall it might also have been wiser to go for a more conservative configuration rather than bullpup -- which might have the added disadvantage of reducing grenade launcher barrel length, reducing the grenade's range.

So I disagree that it is either too long or too heavy, not for the kind of capabilities it provides and certainly not when compared with other OICWs.

Does anyone know what the grenade capacity is or is it just a single load?

AssassinsMace said:

Does anyone know what the grenade capacity is or is it just a single load?

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Single load.

If you read insignius's post where he quotes hongjian's excellent summary of the system, it becomes visible that a single load system is in some ways preferable to a grenade mag -- and apparently the PLA themselves chose a single load version instead of the initial prototypes which had a mag!

Well, the K11 costs $14,000, but I suspect with Chinese cost reduction the ZH-05 would cost less. A cost-reduced version of the ZH-05 could probably push the price down to something reasonable with which entire squads could be equipped with ZH-05s.

As I said on CDF, I agree that it's a reasonable first attempt; the ZH-05 is far lighter than its American or Koreans counterparts.

Inst said:

Well, the K11 costs $14,000, but I suspect with Chinese cost reduction the ZH-05 would cost less. A cost-reduced version of the ZH-05 could probably push the price down to something reasonable with which entire squads could be equipped with ZH-05s.

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The problem is that shedding a few hundred grams worth of stamped metal from the rifle by developing a bullpup version won't reduce the cost where it matters -- the fire control system, the optics and electronics.

So a bullpup version with reduced weight won't have a great meaningful change on ZH-05s cost -- certainly far from enough to equip it for every soldier.

Granting elite units all ZH-05 equipment would drastically improve their effectiveness, however. A price of $5,000 a pop could easily be shoulder-able for infantry; whose cost of training can now add up to $100,000.

Interesting information from Hongjiang. But while it appears he has some inside sources, either he didn't fully understand, or the information he got was second, third hand or more removed so a lot of the details have been missed.

I say this because the explanation given for why the PLA chose a bolt acting single load design over a 5 round mag semi-auto for the integrated grenade launcher simply doesn't add up.

The desire to do away with bulky and expensive electronics in the grenade itself to lower price and increase the yield of the rounds is understandable, and almost a textbook example of PLA pragmatism. But that only applies to the grenade rounds and not the rifle.

If that was the only consideration, I would have just issue the troopers with separate 3 round mags for their special grenades. The time difference between switching grenade mags and manually loading a new shell should be negligible.

The advantages of having a 3-5 round rapid fire option over a single shot weapon is obvious to all, and arguably even more so for the special grenades, because when you need to fire a contact detonation round or flechet round, chances are you may need to fire again soon after.

The main reasons to choose bolt action over semi-auto are:
1) increased chamber pressure, with better range and ballistic profile for the grenade.
2) reduced weight from the much simpler mechanical design
3) improved reliability from the simpler mechanical design
4) improved balance from deleting the weight of the 5 round mag and semi-auto loading mechanism. The weight reduction could be even greater if the original design needed some ballast at the front of the gun to stop it being too rear heavy. The changed location of the battery pack, and the general sleeker profile could evidence of this rebalancing.
5) slightly reduced cost from the simpler mechanics

Of these, I think the first 3 would be the primary reasons for choosing bolt action over semi auto.

I also think this weapon may see wider service than what has been suggested. Obviously the PLA isn't going to equip every soldier with one, but it's not hard to see these weapons becoming the standard issue for the grenadiers in squads who would currently be using underslung tube launchers.

I think if the PLA wanted a specialist weapon for only 1 or 2 guys per fireteam, they would have been better off going for a separate dedicated smart grenade launcher like the XM25. Even if they were going with a combi-weapon, the emphasis would have been on the smart grenade launcher, like every other such design out there. They may indeed only issue 1-2 guys one per fireteam, but that would probably be because of costs and production capacity.

By putting the rifle first, the new ZH05 really seems like it can be mass issued as a standardised next gen assault rifle to entire squads or the majority of the squads. At least for special forces and elite units etc.

By increasing the engagement range of the grenade, you could potentially get your opponent before he is within firing range. Then, having lower firing rate may not be that much of an issue.

And, unless you are spamming. The time it takes to aim and adjust a grenade trajectory, especially a lower velocity one, may equal the time it takes to load a new grenade. And if the magazine jams you are not screwed for bolt action.

Isn't PLA adopting a larger more powerful grenade, so it may compensate for the lower firerate?