Potential PLANAF Carrier Aviation Alternatives

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
The single engined F-8 Crusader served in the French Navy for decades. Also we have the A-4 Skyhawk and the A-7 Corsair for the USN. And of course, the Harrier jet is also single engined.

The twin engine reason put up by the US Navy is their excuse so that no navalized F-16 would be forced by the Congress on them. It is sacred to the US Navy that their top fighter must be unique from the USAF, which is why hell will freeze over before you even see a navalized F-22. It must have been a political feat to get the USN to agree on the F-35 through the compromise of the use of the word "Joint", plus the fact that Navy's traditional aircraft contractors like Grumman have stopped making aircraft.
 
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BLUEJACKET

Banned Idiot
That is very interesting!
So, how about the Yak-141? In my opinion, the PLAN could revive the program and use the result with success on both LHA & CV type carriers!

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Xi’an Aircraft Industry Company is reportedly working on a new bomber aircraft project, which is said to resemble the Russian Su-34. If this is true, the project may benefits from the knowledge and experience China obtained from the licensed production of the Su-27SK at Shenyang, since the Su-34 design bears close tie to the former.
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The PLAN may also use it either land or ship based, or both- in anti-ship & land attack roles.
 
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BLUEJACKET

Banned Idiot
How about MIG23/27? China could get some from Russia an/or some other countries and reverse engineer it. With strenghtened landing gear & a tailhookit could make fine carrier interceptor/ground attack should Su-34 prove too slow in coming/expensive!
mig23-flogger.jpg

mig27.jpg

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These MiG-23MS helped the Chinese to develop their J-8II aircraft by borrowing some MiG-23 features, such as its ventral fin and air intakes, ...
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Visitors can also see the famous Soviet MiG-23 aircraft-fighter, two Mi-24 military helicopters and Chinese military aircraft. When the Minsk was an active military vessel this deck would hold 42 aircraft simultaneously.
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Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
How about MIG23/27? China could get some from Russia an/or some other countries and reverse engineer it.

Simply too much dated ! There have been several attempts besides the Russians to develop a carrier-capable MiG-23 alias the "K" and esp. the "A"-version but for today .... WHY ????
 

BLUEJACKET

Banned Idiot
Simply too much dated ! There have been several attempts besides the Russians to develop a carrier-capable MiG-23 alias the "K" and esp. the "A"-version but for today .... WHY ????
That's just another possibility- "to keep your options open"!
 

Sea Dog

Junior Member
VIP Professional
MiG-23 on a future PLAN carrier? I don't think that approach is really needed. I'm willing to bet that China is going to pursue the Su-33 as a whole option. Su-33 can be used in naval ops as a multi-role purpose aircraft, can carry a nice load of missiles, has good sea legs, and can do both anti-ship, and land attack strikes. Why even consider such an old aircraft like this?

For an alternative, I can see the FC-1 being put into a navalized configuration as a way to supplement Su-33's.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
BJ, you must be one of those "yesteryear" Soviet aircraft fans. Admittedly I like dated Soviet aircraft too, just love the way they look. But they're dated and no way in hell they will be in a future PLAN ship. The best you can expect are Su-33s or like copies.
 

BLUEJACKET

Banned Idiot
BJ, you must be one of those "yesteryear" Soviet aircraft fans. Admittedly I like dated Soviet aircraft too, just love the way they look. But they're dated and no way in hell they will be in a future PLAN ship. The best you can expect are Su-33s or like copies.
But the MIG-29 is also dated and it's been bought for the Indian carrier. The airframe is old but when you put new gear in it becomes modernized for today's missions.
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
But the MIG-29 is also dated and it's been bought for the Indian carrier. The airframe is old but when you put new gear in it becomes modernized for today's missions.

Ohhh please !!! The MiG-29 was the successor to the MiG-23 in Russian service and at least one generation behind !

If You follow Your argument You could use a navalised MiG-19/J-6 ... :roll: ... I think China should know this design now much better than the Russians themselfs !

Deino
 

adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
As far as I know, the MiG-23K, along with Yak-44 and Beriev P-42, never got past the design stage.

In Russian service, the last MiG-23P (Flogger-G) variant was retired in 1998. The MiG-23-98 upgrade program was only successful in exporting few component upgrades to Angola and India. It's very unlikely that the PLAAF/PLANAF would acquire MiG-23 at this point, or develop a naval variant.

Currently Rosoboronexport is only offering 2 carrier-based combat jets, the MiG-29K/KUB and Su-33. The MiG-29K is lighter (~18,550 kg) and smaller than the Su-33 (~25,000 kg), which would enable smaller carriers to carry more aircraft.

Since India operated both MiG-29 and Su-30MKI, they could've gone with either MiG-29K or Su-33 without too much additional logistics issues. But for the PLANAF, I think the choice would be Su-33. Though personally, I think they're better off investing in Korea LPX style helicopter flat-tops at this time. The PRC doesn't own oversea territory and all of its territorial claims are within land-based aircraft strike range.

I'd put my $$ in:
* SSBN's & SLBM's
* Maritime strike aircraft
* Amphibious assault ships

For the amphibious assault ship strategy, I'd do a "10 year plan" and gradually build up the tonnage in 4 phases:

Phase 1 (2006-2007): Complete construction on the current 17,000 ton LHD, then re-design for flat-top (LP-X) style.

Phase 2: (2008-2010): Build a pair of the new flat-top LHD. I'd estimate the size to be 18,000-20,000 tons, and carry 6-8 helicopters, 2-3 LCAC's, 600-800 marines, plus equipment/vehiciles. Similiar capacity as Korean LP-X.

Phase 3: (2011-2013): Enlarge previous design and build 2 ships at ~30,000 ton displacement. This ship should have similiar capacity as the FS Mistral-class, with 12-16 helicopters, 2-3 LCACs, 800-1,000 marines, plus equipment/vehicles.

Phase 4: (2014-2016): Enlarge previous design and bild 2 ships at ~40,000 ton displacement, similiar to the USN Tarwa-class LHD in size. It should carry 20-24 helicopters, 1,200-1,600 marines, plus their equipment & vehiciles.

========

This strategy basically follows what the PLAN does today, build a pair, then build an enlarged/improved pair, rinse, repeat. If you find a design that you like, you build additional pairs. We hope, with the experienced gained in gradually moving up the tonnage, the PRC shipyards would gain valuable experience in building even larger ships.

According to my timeline, by 2016 the PLAN would operate ~7 recently built large capacity LHD's, and the next progression would be to fixed-wing aircraft carriers:

Phase 5: (2016-2020) Build a pair of ~60,000 ton aircraft carriers with 30-40 aircraft & helicopter capacity. By then we hope the domestically-made next-generation carrier-capable aircraft should be ready. If building 2 is too ambitious, then 1 is fine.

Upon completion (~2020?), the PLAN would, at least in terms of hardware, take a giant leap toward catching up to the power projection capability of European navies, such as the RN with 2 x CVF carriers, or the French FS with Charles de Gaulle CV + PA2 CV. But experience will take some time to acquire.

In the mean time, I'd advocate turning the Varyag into a floating test platform for testing naval aircraft. The hull can be towed & anchored near-shore (or keep in dock), and its flight deck rebuild to new specs if needed. They can start off by purchasing a small batch of Su-33's.
 
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