possible confrontation scenario with the US

slackpiv

New Member
The HAN is the noisiest sub in the world. Name me another sub in service thats noiser.
stealth was a true target of the mission, the chinese wouldve used a kilo.
A kilo has an extremely limited range. If a kilo needs to retain its stealth it needs to travel at about 2 knots.
yeah, thats really going to make me beilive you. can you actually post the site, or the source?
Believe what you want, i'm just telling the truth. Its sometimes described as having train with all its windows open.
 
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MIGleader

Banned Idiot
i think a kilo surfaced is quieter than a han underwater

quieter? so now its only "deployed subs"? your quick to change your boundaries...

but i will take your word for it.
 

Sea Dog

Junior Member
VIP Professional
MIGleader said:
i think a kilo surfaced is quieter than a han underwater

quieter? so now its only "deployed subs"? your quick to change your boundaries...

but i will take your word for it.

Well, honestly, it does no good to compare a FltIII 688(I) with the USS Nautilus which has been out of service for a long time now. I thought all along we were only discussing "deployed" SSN's.

i think the plan sent the han in to intentionally be detected. if stealth was a true target of the mission, the chinese wouldve used a kilo. it sends a message: our submaries will infiltrate your sea space if conflict arises

The only message it sends is that they don't understand how to use their submarines. It would make more sense to send a SAG on the periphery than a sub. I don't buy it at all. Sorry. The whole notion that you blast your way into any space with a submarine is ludicrous. Submarines are intended to be stealthy platforms. Not boisterous battleships.
 
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IDonT

Senior Member
VIP Professional
Sea Dog said:
The only message it sends is that they don't understand how to use their submarines. It would make more sense to send a SAG on the periphery than a sub. I don't buy it at all. Sorry. The whole notion that you blast your way into any space with a submarine is ludicrous. Submarines are intended to be stealthy platforms. Not boisterous battleships.

Exactly, submarines are not meant to be the "show the flag" type vessels. There is a reason that they are called the "silent service". A submarine's job is to be stealthy, to evade detection and launched a devastating attack from an unseen flank.

The HAN SSN is the noisiest commisioned sub in the world.
 

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
This is really funny though. In the chinese sub thread you're discussing massive asm attacks on carrier fleets, something that suitable for this thread, and here you've been discussing the han sub... anyway, this is the right thread for me even if it's closely connected to what is now talked about in the sub thread... anyway, here's another 'wild and unrealistic idea'. Only it's not so unrealistic, you just have to think big.

IF you're gonna go with total saturation attack with asms against a carrier group (or even groups) instead of large, heavy supersonic missile which is expensive you're better off designing a smaller, cheaper, winged (im talking big foldable wings, like an airplane) missile with simple engine, that doesn't have to faster than, say, 0.6 mach. It could carry the same punch as far as warheads go, and it'd surely be much more fuel efficient. I can't stress this enough - such planes would need to be extremely fuel efficient, enough so that they can be lauched from airfields (or dropped from a bomber, for that matter) at distances like 1000 km inland of china.

Detection? Yes, that's always an issue. Thankfully, a CBG is large force, with large ships. In theory, awacs detectable from 300-350 km away, in practice that awacs would need a large fighter cover to fight through US planes to get to such a range from the CBG. So that tactic is kinda shaky. A fair bet would be satellites, looking down through their lenses. It'd require blue skies, of course. Plus it'd be something like looking for a needle in a haystack, it could be found in 5 mins, but it also could require day or two to be found, to get a lucky pass. Thankfully, there's only so many places a CBG can be around china to be useful to the USN. And yes, satellites could be attacked but that's escalating it, something US which depends on satellites much more than china, doesn't really want to do.

Then there are the missiles themselves. Actually, UAVs, since they'd look more like a plane than a missile. And here's the beauty part. They'd be modelled to have same RCS like your regular sukhoi. No, that doesn't require same size, it just needs careful design to accentuate RCS instead of lowering it. missile/uavs would communicate via some sort of datalink that can't be jammed, like a laser. Sure, range of such a datalink would be small but that's ok. All that'd be needed is for the uavs to know where the other uavs in the loose formation are, where the other planes around it are going. So you'd launch a flight of, say, 60 sukhois, with awacs behind them at safe distance. If they get a location of the CBG from a satellite - great. If they don't they'd just spread around, looking for them. Each two sukhoi group would have something like additional 40 uavs flying in loose formation with it. In a case where the reference sukhois would be shot down, remaining uavs would go the closest remianing sukhoi, or a new sukhoi would be dispatched from the rear.

Attacking multiple such groupd would be costly for US since they'd waste tons of their missiles at BVR ranges but since there ARE real planes in the group, it would be dangerous to ignore the whole group. Yes, they could approach to visual range for confirmation, but they'd already be brought down by chinese BVR a2a missiles by then. Actually, attacking multiple such groups would only show approximate location of the carrier group.

Sooner or later, the CBG would be located, one way or another - be it with satellite, sukhois that have survived, awacs from behind, etc. After that it's easy. All the uavs would switch to attack mode, converge so they form one unified force, and go for the carrier, still close enough to use the datalink but far away from each other so a single missile can't destroy more than one of them. Of course each uav would pack it's own targeting system, an irst of some kind and telephoto lens tv system with a cpu matching the visuals with the library of targets. the uavs wouldn't even need to try to avoid th standards and ESSMS and RAMs and phalanx. Let them come. Even if CBG starts moving at full speed the uavs would already be close enough to catch them and then a continuous wave of something like 1000 missiles/uavs would rain on the fleet. Sure, tons would get destroyed but enough would come through. If for any reason 1000 isnt enough ( i do believe it is), next attack would feature more.

Yes, such a plan would need a few years to develop and build such huge number of missilse. And it'd require a dozen airfields in the inland of china to launch all those missiles. Since they'd be in flocks, you wouldn't need to coordinate all 1000 or so, but just the sukhois. It sounds like SciFi only cause no one has tried it before, but everything i said here is perfectly within reach of todays' tech and command ability that china posesses. Thing is, that's the best way to go about attacking a CBG, in my opinion. China right now can't compete with US in expensive high tech systems. But it can go the opposite route of relatively cheap low tech solutions used in massive numbers. When i say relatively cheap i'm aware that producing and maintaing such a force of uavs would cost several billions of dollars. But that's a small price to pay for negating USN of the power they bring to the war with their CBGs.
 

IDonT

Senior Member
VIP Professional
The problem is, its not that easy to find a Carrier.

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The following discussion will be split into several parts and will remain at a somewhat top level. The reasons should be obvious. Specific references will be made to a particular operation, NORPAC 82, but details on tactics and modern systems will not be disclosed. These tactics are essentially the same as during WWII. The historical accounts of the German surface raiders, USN submarine actions, IJN surface and CV operations, and of course the USN surface and CV operations during that conflict include many examples of the following basic tactics.


The main question is: How do you hide a task force at sea? The answer in very general terms is; by not telling the other guy where you are.

This is not as dumb as it sounds.

To illustrate take the following generic situation and think of the naval environment. One actually could extend this to other environments as well.

Put two football teams in a stadium at night each on their defended goal line. Each team will provide the backfield players with rifles and the linemen all have a pistol. Each weapon is equipped with a flashlight fastened to the barrel. The quarterback is equipped with a flashing signal light.

Now turn out all the lights so it is absolutely dark.

Who wants to turn on their light first?

Now to more accurately replicate the naval environment we put half the fans in the stands more or less evenly distributed on the field. We also put two blimps overhead, one for each team, equipped with flashing light and binoculars.

Obviously the light will replicate both communications and radar systems. Everybody's eyes replicate ESM, ELINT, COMINT, and radar receivers.

Obviously if you want to hide the best way is run silent and blend into the general traffic.

There are several conditions of hiding a task force. First is undetected. In this condition the presence of the force is not known. For this to really work it should be coupled with a deception plan so that the opposition not only does not know the force is present, but does not know they don't know and for some reason believes the force to be elsewhere. I will say no more about deception. The second condition is that you have been detected, but not located. This can include the presence of the force is known, but no system has detected the force, or the force has been detected but not identified. And finally, the force has been detected and located which implies identification of the targets.

One's tactics will change based on the above.

If the force has not been detected one can run in to a launch point and hit the target with the first wave while operating completely silent until initial weapon impact. Once the survivors pick themselves out of the rubble they will deduce the presence of the carrier force from the initial wave.

With a force underway the opposition for some reason believes it knows that the ships are elsewhere and has no information to the contrary. Such operations are most effective when coupled with a deception plan that keys the opposition to know for a certainty that you are somewhere else and is therefore not looking. This goes far beyond local efforts of the group.

Every man in the entire task force is kept informed of the tactical situation and what is going on. Full awareness, training, and discipline by all hands is essential.

The force transits to its objective area in complete electronic silence. Deceptive formations are used dispersed over a broad area to ensure any detection system does not see the classic "bullseye" formation made famous in countless Public Affairs shots and never used in operations. Broad surveillance systems are known so any detection method is countered either by denying sensor information, misleading, or providing expected results consistent with something else. For example, ESM systems rely on active emissions from radars or communication systems. So nothing is radiated. Overhead systems are in known orbits, are predictable, and their sensing capabilities known. So the track is varied, weather is sought out to hide in when vulnerable, blending into sea lanes (while staying out of visual detection range of ships) and such techniques. Deceptive lighting is used at night so that the obvious "blacked out warship" is instead thought to be a merchant or cruise liner. Surface search radar identical to commercial ones are used. Turn count masking is used by the ships. Aircraft maintenance on the CV and other helo equipped ships is limited to prevent transmissions.

In NORPAC 82 using these and other tactics the CV force operated close enough to support each other, but far enough and randomly dispersed to avoid identification by anyone. One night in bad weather a man went overboard when the ship was within 200nm of a Soviet airfield in the Kuril Island chain. Despite launch of helicopters and active search methods by several ships in the successful SAR, including clear voice UHF transmissions, the force is not detected because no Soviet asset was above the radar horizon. No overhead system was cued. The force continued on.

At the initial objective point the ships have managed to penetrate without the opposition having any clue that the force was within 2,000 miles. Limited air operations have been conducted to this point with no aircraft transmitting radio, radar, or any other detectable phenom. The aircraft launch "ziplip" and fly a mission without any transmission. Aircraft stay below the radar horizon of defense sites which are less than 200nm away. The E2 flies a passive mission in readiness, but silent unless called to go active.

At the objective "mirror image strikes" are flown. These are full strike missions by the airwing flown on a bearing 180 degrees out from the actual objective. Again, no active transmissions. The entire launch, strike, and recovery are flown without a key being touched. In NORPAC 82 these mirror image strikes within range of Petroplavask and the SSBN bastion in the Sea of O are conducted for 4 days without being detected by the opposition. All day, every day, the E2 orbits on a passive profile. All of the ships operate in passive mode simply listening. In a real war our presence would have been deduced on the first strike as the survivors picked themselves out the rubble of their airfields. But for this operation we continued to train in silence.

One should not miss the implications of this feat. A strategic strike capable force operated with complete impunity for 4 days within range of strategic assets without being detected.

Today, the capability to operate in a passive mode while receiving the complete tactical picture from off-ship has been expanded and refined to an extraordinary degree. All of the vulnerabilities to detection of the force are also its strengths in tracking everyone else. The complete range of overhead and other sensors are downlinked to every ship and many aircraft. If one system in the USN or Space detects a contact, everyone receives it. One could, with training and discipline, sail a complete 6 month deployment and merely listen to all of the other sensors, and strike without warning if need be.

But enough is enough. After dodging Soviet Naval Aviation strike regiments going out to "raid" the Enterprise group the time came to tip our hand and enter the next phase. So out of the blue a Badger group going out against Enterprise and expecting F14s was intercepted some 500nm from Enterprise by F4s with "Midway" painted on the side. And all hell then broke lose!!

Every Soviet asset that could fly, sail, submerge, or orbit was focused on the area in an attempt to locate the group.

The force has now successfully transited to the operation area and conducted the first flight operations which reveal its presence. In wartime this would result in the survivors picking themselves out of the (possibly radioactive) rubble of their airfields and other key military facilities.

So the game is up. But is it? The key as before is to deny targeting information to the opposition, leave them confused about your precise location, and continue to operate.

The task force has as its advantage the element of long-range striking power which allows it to operate at considerable range, thus giving the opposition a very large area to visually search. Check a chart and draw a 600nm circle, cut it in half to represent the sea/land interface, and see how many square miles have to be searched. If operating F18s cut the range in half (Side note. A recent USN article on F18E testing quoted a strike range of only 600nm which equates to a strike radius of 300nm. This loss in capability will cost future striking Admirals key sea space which will bear on this problem).

As before, much of the process of targeting is determining which of the many contacts detected is the one you are looking for. Most techniques rely on exploiting the Achilles Heal of Radar and Communication. To work, you have to transmit, and by transmitting you tell the opposition who and where you are. Don't transmit, and he has to find you the hard way, by visual identification searching the vast ocean area 10sqnm at a time.

Recall the original parallel. The Football field with both teams equipped with flashlights and handguns, with half the fans also on the field and the lights turned out. Who wants to turn their flashlight on first?

The USN has the additional advantage of a networked surveillance system where if anyone in the USN (including shore based facilities such as Naval Space Command) has the contact, everyone has it. So one can stay silent, and receive all the data from the other participants. This allows tactical deception, missile traps, decoys, etc.

Also, if the opposition is going to search with active sensors such as Radar, he is also telling you where he is and who he is. So our fighters can run out the ESM line of bearing and bag the recon Bear or strike pathfinder.

A word about the opposition. The SNA strike regiments were (are) structured and armed very well to go kill naval formations. The AS4/6 on a Badger or Backfire in regimental strength backed with Bears in the recon role were and are formidable. They roughly had a Regiment per carrier. In a straight-forward engagement, the issue would have been "in doubt" at best. If a strike regiment caught a CV by surprise it would have been curtains. An alerted CV would have a better than even chance of surviving, but probable losses would have been severe. But the Regiment running through fighter opposition to their launch points and then getting back out would have taken crippling losses. They would have not been able to mount a second strike and would have been effectively destroyed if not annihilated. If a missile trap is set so that the regiment is climbing to launch altitude over a missile ship it doesn't know about until the radar comes up and missiles start impacting, the fight will be over before it barely starts. So it was critical for the target to be identified and located prior to the regiment being committed. This takes time and allows the CV time to maneuver, set decoy groups, missile traps, fighter ambushes, etc.

With two hours warning for example, a CV could dispatch a surface CG missile trap 60nm down the threat axis, station the CAP Outer Air Battle Grid, put a CG decoy group stationary, and run another 60nm down range and off axis in a silent mode. Then the regiment locates a likely target at the expected point, runs into a missile trap, fighter grid, and a target that can defend itself without ever threatening the CV.

So the trick is to prevent identification and localization of the force. Decoys run out and radiate. Aircraft launch on missions running silent, fly out to a deception point at low altitude, then climb and radiate as normal. The searchers locate the pop-up point but don't find the CV. This is particularly effective if the first launch of the day locates a large, neutral merchant or cruise liner and everybody uses that as the reference deception point. Then the searchers actually see a target at the point that the flight patterns indicate. In wartime they commit, they lose their regiment, and the CV then has a free ride.

We would also deliberately provide a false contact reference. If a searching aircraft is intercepted they can draw an operational radius of previously observed intercepts and conclude the CV is in that area. That allows a concentrated search. Now if we had deliberately intercepted him at an extended range and then moved the carrier at high speed in the other direction the search effort is concentrated at the wrong point. I did that one day by tanking an A7, running him out a long range and bringing him into an intercept of two Bears that were visually searching and identifying fishing boats and merchants trying to find us. I brought him in off-axis and took him back out off-axis (in other words not directly to or from the CV). We then cranked up the 32.5 knots the Midway could then do and went in the other direction. A few hours later we observed a "large number" of search aircraft vainly saturating that area of the ocean and giving all the fishing boats a great air show.

They could identify the E2's radar. They could then draw the normal circle around the E2's location and search that area. Trouble with that was that I was particularly adept at running out long range while silent, and then running a distant patrol point and acting as if the CV was close by. I used to routinely obtain contact at extended ranges. So by drawing their datum points based on my patrols they also looked in the wrong places, and at the same time I data-linked the complete tactical picture to all the silent participants.

We would also recover the returning aircraft by marshalling as normal but in the wrong place. Then, under E2 control, the returning aircraft would fly a recovery pattern to a deception point, and then run in at low altitude and silent to the CV.

A sub vectored out to find us has to have some idea of where to look. If the CV has freedom to operate it can avoid contact by "random and dynamic" movement. Only if the CV locks itself to a set operational area and pattern (as in most structured exercises which lends itself to the prevailing myth of submarine superiority) does it become predictable and hence, vulnerable. If the CV moves it forces the sub to move to catch it, thereby making the sub more detectable. Of course, one could run over the sub by accident in which case it falls to CV group number two to take up the fight! Such is war.

We continued to operate in that manner during NORPAC much as a boxer might in the ring, dodging and weaving for four days with everything in Siberia that could fly, sail or submerge looking for us. Our success can be measured by the fact that not once did any unit ever come close enough to identify us, and at no time was any strike group committed against us in a mock attack. During this time several regimental mock raids per day were flown against the Enterprise which operated openly. And we continued to fly mirror-image strikes within strike range of key Soviet facilities several times per day with complete impunity.

At the conclusion of four such very interesting days it was determined that not only had we obtained all the needed training and experience we were looking for, but that we had also probably trained the Soviets more than we probably wanted to. So we then rendezvoused with the Enterprise group during the night. The next morning, as scattered light filtered into the Northern Pacific, the initial Soviet strikes and shadows saw two carriers where there had been but one the day before. And then all Hell really broke lose!! But that is another story and a very conventional one.


Editor's note: Abbreviation Glossary

A7 – Daylight Light Attack aircraft.
AS4/6 - Soviet Air-Launched Anti-Ship Missiles.
CAP – Combat Air Patrol
COMINT- Communications Intelligence
CV – USA designation for an Aircraft Carrier.
E2 – Electronic Surveillance and Radar aircraft, also used for Command and Control functions. An apt description that I wish I could claim credit for is that it looks like "an aircraft being terrorized by a flying saucer."
ELINT – Electronic Intelligence
ESM – Electronic Support Measures
F18E – A Fighter/Attack aircraft intended to replace the A-6 attack bomber. As noted in this essay, it is debatable if this aircraft can truly replace one of the most successful Naval Attack Aircraft ever built.
IJN – Imperial Japanese Navy
nm – Nautical Mile (1.151 statute miles or 1.852 km)
NORPAC 82 – North Pacific 1982 Exercise.
SAR – Search And Rescue
SNA – Soviet Naval Aviation. Includes all of the commands, regiments and squadrons.
sqnm – Square Nautical Mile
USN – United States Navy
 

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
GAH!! i HATE when i write a big piece and then stupid people come and close my browser window. So you'll get a short version, i'm sorry.

Article is fine and all, i've seen it before, but it's talking bout a different scenario. In US vs china, a CBG needs to come to certain range to launch the attack. China, therefore, needs to search a smaller area, a belt from chinese shore, some 1000-1500 km deep. Part of it is searchable from the shore, so...while it still is a large area, there's only so many places a USN carrier would be useful to aide taiwan.

Secondly, article mostly talks bout reducing emissions and using decoys for el. emissions and so on. Yes, that's the high tech way to go about it. But what i was saying it a low tech approach. Simple radar search combined with visual identification. Yes, it'd be something like searching for a needle in a haystack but that's a very doable thing - to find such needle. sure, it'd take you a day or so, but it's doable. Or perhaps a CBG would be able to elude for more days. Or it'd be deteced right away. There'd be lots of luck there, granted. But it is my opinion china can sustain the blow(s) that a US carrier can deliver, while a loss of 2-3 CBGs would be a rather heavy blow to the USN.

Also, you haven't said a word about using awacs to search the seas with a forward force of dummy uavs indistinguishable from afar from the core force of real fighters. Again, yes, it'd need a fair number of awacs, a large number of sukhois and a massive number of uavs but it'd doable. Tech is there to produce them, launch them and coordinate them, you just need money and determination.
 

darth sidious

Banned Idiot
slackpiv

please provide us with a artical or source to prove that the han is the noisest sub ever built

the November has a typeXXI hull that will make more noise then the waterdrop on the HAN

the november has two reacor compare to the han's one that will make more noise

the november has a turbine drive that noiser then the hans turbo-electric trive

the november has two propellers compared with the hans one that willmake more noise


here is my reason now tell me why the november is quieter then the Han???:coffee:
 

coolieno99

Junior Member
IDonT said:
The problem is, its not that easy to find a Carrier.
.... etc ....

It's not that hard with a Synthetic Aperture Radar(SAR) space satellite. At low resolution a large swath of the ocean can be monitor. At higher resolution(25M) the target can be determined to type. And it can penetrate through cloud cover ... :coffee:
 

Su-34

New Member
For the PLAN to consider fighting the US Navy over Taiwan, then the PLAN needs a minimum number of these ships:

1. 15 Song SSKs
2. 10 Yuan SSKs
3. 8 Type 093 SSNs
4. Retain older Mings, Romeos, and Hans to serve as 'baits'.
5. 10 Type 052C/D Air Defence DDGs
6. 15 Type 054A FFGs
7. 2 guided-missile cruisers with lots of air defense missiles and cruise missile launchers.

Also it would be nice if the PLAN gets an SSN that matches the performance of the current-generation Russian Akula-II, which is way better than the Victor-III.
 
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