Political and Military Analysis on China

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Lezt

Junior Member
Lezt, surprisingly you only focus on the US & European examples. Have you not heard about the BLIND human rights activisit who wants to flee from captivity after being detained for a considerable period of time - His crime (speaking against the State's abortion policy). What about the case of the famous Chinese artist (Wei?). Even Bo Xi Lai's Police Chief wanted to flee & took refuge in the US Consulate. There are many, many more examples of persecuted people whose crime: believing in human rights. Anyway, I think your reading of politics need to be widen & suggest you dont be dogmatic or narrow-minded. Other opinions are OK - agree to disagree. Best wishes for enlightenment.

My examples are only to show you that regardless of a so called democracy or not, your human rights issues existed and persisted -> that regardless of the political system, it will continue exist. By making your statement, you agree that democracy in the American and European examples; also shows a lack of freedom. Therefore you have already agreed that it is not the political system which determines "freedom".

I honestly believe that the Chinese government believes deeply in human rights, the CCP was founded on giving people rights; such as equal rights for men and women. You can argue about what human rights are, but to say simply that people are being persecuted for believing in human rights is shallow.

I will give you a classic dilemma, you have 2 people, one have to kill the other to survive or both dies. Does one person's right to live trumps the rights of another? For example, China's one child policy is controversial, but is the right of a civilization of persisted existence more important that the right of a person's ability to procreate? I am not debating what is wrong or what is right; I am saying that you also cannot make that judgement call in what is right or wrong as in doing so, you are already trampling on someone else's rights.
 

NikeX

Banned Idiot
Wrong.


The point I seek clarification on is what exactly defines "mired" in knocking off foreign methods and ideas.
Not so long ago korea and japan and long before them, america too were knocking off other people's ideas. There are various reasons why some chinese industries may copy foreign designs more than others (say, automobiles), but in others they are already world leaders and foreign assisatnce (and certainly IP theft) is no longer a factor (telecommunications, shipbuilding, computing, clean energy, etc).

It isn't china which is bragging how they are going to leap frog the west, it is the west who are saying they will leap frog the west.

You may have a point because China itself is not making these fantastic claims


???
"Forever" is a long time, and if you make such a generalization about an entire country's workforce and industry again, I think we may as well just finish the conversation here.
And the onus here is on you to show me which chinese industries partake in so much IP theft, and how that justifies the idea that a majority or even the entire chinese economy is based off IP theft??

You've obviously been unaware of the values the government and country and families has been placing on innovation and more importantly, education.

But what type of education? And how effective is it? It seems as soon as possible Chinese students leave Chinese education facilities for western institutions of higher learning. What's up with that? Can't they learn in China?

It was recently said that Chinese education never could create a company like Apple


Transfer of technology as a condition of allowing access to the market is not IP theft. Give me some examples which substantiate your idea that the entire country's industry and economy (or even a majority) is based off IP theft.

We can start with the examples below. China has a well developed system of espionage on a world wide scale designed to funnel IP and other information back to China. The question is why? And does China believe it can establish the good will towards other countries while outright stealing sensitive data and information from those countries ?

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"...Until recently, there has been no reliable public studies about the extent of foreign economic espionage, especially with a link to China. But the results of a detailed analysis of the prosecutions under the Economic Espionage Act establishes that economic espionage with a China connection also creates a great risk to the financial well-being of U.S. companies, and, in turn to the U.S. economy...."

"...computer hackers, particularly from China, who penetrate U.S. companies’ computers and steal valuable data and intellectual property."

If China wants to be considered a good citizen of the world then why don't they approach companies and countries with the idea of LICENSING technologies and processes? China has the money to afford this approach and people would think much more highly of China if they took this more honorable approach.

Underhanded methods like this below do nothing to promote the image of China as an innovator. In fact moves like these are angering people towards China.

"......The government alleged in 21% of the prosecutions that did not involve state sponsorship that the purpose of the theft was to benefit a company in China. Again, nearly all of the thefts involved sophisticated and valuable technology. For example, on January 19, 2012, Yuan Li, a former Sanofi Aventis research chemist pleaded guilty to stealing the company’s trade secrets and selling them to a U.S. sales and distribution unit of a Chinese chemical company....."
 

In4ser

Junior Member
Political reform is not what China needs the most. What China needs is Legal Reform, greater transparency and accountability for its actions from Politicians and the wealthy. It does not matter if people are able to vote, if each new regime is just as corrupt and immune to laws as the last one. India highlights this problem, having a ineffective and very corrupt government despite being a democracy and it can be argued that US is to a lesser extent or is on the way to a similar fate. Democracy is flawed that it determines who is most popular not who is right. As people are self-interested they will vote in who will provide the quickest and greatest benefit, without any real long-term strategy for the future.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
You may have a point because China itself is not making these fantastic claims

Well they're hardly fantastic but yeah china's not making them


But what type of education? And how effective is it? It seems as soon as possible Chinese students leave Chinese education facilities for western institutions of higher learning. What's up with that? Can't they learn in China?

Chinese education before college/university has recently been surveyed as better than many western countries (that goes for rural, poorer off schools as well).
There's no denying many western universities are better, but you need a good base to work up from .

It was recently said that Chinese education never could create a company like Apple

You'll have to define what a company like apple is first, and what a country's education system must do to get there. Otherwise that's just a blank statement.


We can start with the examples below. China has a well developed system of espionage on a world wide scale designed to funnel IP and other information back to China. The question is why? And does China believe it can establish the good will towards other countries while outright stealing sensitive data and information from those countries ?

There is a difference between a system of espionage developed by the country itself, and many instances of espionage occurring at the same time.

Now, I'm not denying that economic espionage occurred -- I never denied that. But you're changing the subject. Your original point was that first and foremast, china's industry was somehow entirely reliant on IP theft, which you have done nothing to prove. You've shown instances of economic espionage, and you're changing the subject by talking about goodwill and what not, which is irrelevant to your original argument which you have yet to provide backing for.

As for goodwill -- first of all we don't know the government is necessarily behind all this as I've said. Being an SOE does not necessarily mean it has the CCP's tacit approval to do what they want. Second of all, espionage of all kinds occurs between countries of all kinds, for the greater good they must keep cordial relations.

If China wants to be considered a good citizen of the world then why don't they approach companies and countries with the idea of LICENSING technologies and processes? China has the money to afford this approach and people would think much more highly of China if they took this more honorable approach.

I suppose the issue here is how much espionage is actually worth when compared to the deals done between china and the rest of the world involving ToT/licensing. I've already mentioned instances of licensing technologies -- that is now the norm when you want to get into the china market.
As for a good citizen of the world... please, such emotionally loaded terms aren't going to get us anywhere.

Underhanded methods like this below do nothing to promote the image of China as an innovator. In fact moves like these are angering people towards China.

LOL I can name a dozen things off the top of my head which people in the west are angry at china for.


---

I have yet to hear a stable basis for your original assertion that the chinese economy/industry is somehow entirely reliant on IP theft, nor that it is as widespread as you suggested.
 

escobar

Brigadier
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The Potomac Institute Cyber Center hosted a special program on Fundamentals of Chinese Information Warfare and Impacts on the Western World on Friday, May 11, 2012. The special guest speaker was William T. Hagestad II, author of the new book 21st Century Chinese Cyberwarfare (IT Governance, 2012).
 

escobar

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Discussions in Beijing about North Korea are always frustrating. It's not so much due to the sharp divergence in United States and Chinese thinking about how to deal with Pyongyang; the two sides differ on many issues.

No, the real problem is the illogic of the Chinese position - at least from a US perspective. Indeed, it would be hard to create a policy toward North Korea that does more damage to Chinese national interests than Beijing's current approach toward Pyongyang.

The standard explanation for Chinese policy goes like this: while denuclearization is desired, stability comes first. There is little chance that North Korea can be persuaded to give up its weapons - at least for a long time - as its arsenal is seen as a form of legitimacy and a deterrent to regime change.

Moreover, Beijing has limited influence in Pyongyang and North Korea's real aim is a relationship with the US, hopefully one that sidelines Seoul as well. This logic produces a policy of minimal pressure on Pyongyang, calls for good behavior by all parties, demands that the US soften its position and be more accommodative, and the fending off of demands for Beijing to do more to bring Pyongyang around.

Recent discussions in Beijing made plain the ways that this policy undermines Chinese interests.


China enables Pyongyang's misbehavior. When dealing with North Korea, China walks softly and has discarded the stick. Whether motivated by ties once as close as "lips and teeth", the desire to maintain whatever leverage China has in Pyongyang, or the fear that pressure might destabilize the North or prompt it to act out, Beijing refuses to crack down on North Korean misdeeds.

Instead, it offers diplomatic cover and minimizes any punishment that might be agreed upon by the international community. For example, while Beijing quickly agreed to a United Nations Security Council presidential statement condemning the North's recent missile launch, it quickly whittled down the list of North Korean companies to be sanctioned from the 40 proposed by the US, European Union, and others, to three.

The result is a feeling of impunity in Pyongyang that leads to precisely the destabilizing behavior that Beijing says it fears. It has also bought China precious little goodwill in the North; Beijing is insistent on the need to give "face" to Pyongyang; with its antics, Pyongyang shows little regard for China's "face".

China antagonizes its neighbors. The readiness to back Pyongyang infuriates South Koreans. Beijing's fear of offending North Korea by even expressing condolences for the deaths of South Korean citizens after the sinking of the Cheonan and the shelling of Yeonpyeong Island has hardened South Korean feelings toward China.

Nearly 92% of South Koreans were dissatisfied with Beijing's response to the shelling incident and more than 58% wanted Seoul to strongly protest, even if it meant damaging the economic relationship with China. More than 60% now consider China the biggest threat after reunification, almost three times as many as identified Japan.

South Koreans are visibly offended by Beijing's call for "all parties" to act responsibly when it is North Korea that is the offender - and taking South Korean lives in the process. In informal trilateral discussions in Beijing last week, South Korean frustration was palpable. We have long heard similar views from Japanese.

China contributes to the strengthening of the US alliance system that it considers a tool of encirclement. Pyongyang's provocations, combined with China's refusal to do more to stop them, has driven Seoul and Tokyo to consolidate military relations with the US. Eager to strengthen the deterrent, US alliances in Northeast Asia are being modernized and reinforced, amid calls for enhancing US extended deterrence.

Some in Seoul (and even more foolishly in the US Congress) are even calling for a redeployment of US tactical nuclear weapons to the Korean Peninsula. Their common concern regarding the North is such that South Korea and Japan are even stepping up bilateral coordination among themselves, a long-sought US goal, but one that has been hindered by historical animosity between Seoul and Tokyo.

China tarnishes its image as a supporter of international law and norms and undermines those norms. International law is hollow if it has "no teeth". The protection afforded Pyongyang and the refusal to see that UN sanctions have consequences undermines attempts to stop North Korea's misbehavior, encourages other governments to act in similar ways, and makes a mockery of international laws and institutions.

Countries that would prefer to rely on international law instead develop ad hoc mechanisms to prevent illegal behavior. Beijing is seen as supporting international norms, principles, and laws that are ineffectual and have little impact on state behavior. China would be hard-pressed to more strongly signal support for an anarchic international system in which states are largely free to act as they please.

Put more bluntly, the more Beijing - frequently aided and abetted by Moscow - renders the UN Security Council useless in dealing with the real challenges to international security, the more it encourages, if not necessitates, the creation of "coalitions of the willing" to deal with such problems.

China reinforces the US role in Northeast Asia and supports its international legitimacy. The reinforcement of US alliances more deeply embeds the US in the region. The growing role of those alliances signals their worth and value - and that of the US more generally - to other governments. The claims that China has marginal influence in North Korea and that the US is the real target of Pyongyang's activities highlights the significance, importance, and centrality of the US to regional diplomacy and affairs.

China blocks contingency planning that can keep a crisis from occurring or worsening. We are repeatedly warned that attempts to discuss North Korea in trilateral or multilateral settings would send the wrong signal to Pyongyang and spur it to act out. So, while experts concede that we need to prepare for a range of crises and contingencies, actually doing so isn't done for fear of antagonizing North Korea.

In fact, such planning takes place without Beijing - this is part of the alliance strengthening. But China has interests in North Korea and is likely to intervene in the event of a crisis. Advanced discussions of how that might occur could minimize the risk that Chinese forces might reach a standoff - or worse - with allied forces in a crisis.

We could be snarky and say we're pleased that China is helping the US achieve its foreign policy objectives. But it is more accurate to say that we, like our South Korean and Japanese colleagues, are frustrated by the consequences of Beijing's self-defeating policies.

North Korea continues to act out, endangering lives, risking the destabilization of Northeast Asia, and forcing other governments to divert resources that could be better used elsewhere. China is not the only country that seeks a stable Northeast Asia so that it can focus on economic development. Yet Beijing continues to pursue misguided, illogical and self-defeating policies.

There is some potential good news on the horizon, however. More and more frequently during our visits to China and during international conferences with Chinese scholars and even some officials, we witness our Chinese colleagues seriously debating one another over the logic behind Beijing's current policy.

Many are truly embarrassed to be seen as Pyongyang's best (only?) friend and protector. They question whether you can actually have stability - China's primary objective - as long as the North has nuclear weapons. And, they acknowledge all the downsides highlighted above and an even more important one for the long term.

No one can predict when it will occur, but it is becoming increasingly clear that the peninsula will one day be reunited, under the political, economic and social system that exists today in Seoul. The longer Beijing keeps the North on life support without insisting on the openness and reform that will set the stage for eventual peaceful reunification, the deeper will be the resentment of the Korean people and the greater will be their suspicion regarding China's long-term motives.

How this serves Beijing's interests remains beyond our ability to comprehend. At some point, one hopes that logic will finally prevail.
 

escobar

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China’s Aerospace Power Trajectory in the Near Seas
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Air and aerospace power has been fundamental for defending China’s “near seas”—encompassing the Bohai Gulf, the Yellow Sea, and the East and South China Seas—since the founding of the People’s Republic. While air and naval operations did not play a significant role in the Chinese Civil War, which was won by the People’s Liberation Army (PLA), the victorious Communist forces were threatened immediately by hostile air and naval forces from the maritime sphere. In 1949 the regime was ill equipped to defend its eleven thousand miles of coastline and more than six thousand islands against attacks and harassment from Nationalist Chinese air and naval forces occupying the large islands of Taiwan and Hainan, as well as several smaller islands, let alone protect the People’s Republic of China (PRC) against the aircraft carriers of the powerful U.S. Seventh Fleet. Even before the People’s Republic was officially declared in October 1949, communist leaders immediately recognized the need for strong naval and air forces; the PLA’s commander, General Zhu De, stated in April 1949 that China “must build its own air forces and navy in order to boost national defense.” This need became apparent shortly thereafter, in June 1949, when the Kuomintang (KMT) government on Taiwan declared a blockade of coastal mainland ports and its naval and air forces began attacking coastal shipping and ports as well as laying mines in river estuaries.
 

escobar

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Comparative Connections
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* Regional Overview: At a Time of Uncertainty, Count on North Korea, by Ralph A. Cossa and Brad Glosserman
* US-Japan Relations: Back to Normal? by Michael J. Green and Nicholas Szechenyi
* US-China Relations: Xi Visit Steadies Ties; Dissident Creates Tension, by Bonnie Glaser and Brittany Billingsley
* US-Korea Relations: North Korea’s Rocket Launch, by Victor Cha and Ellen Kim
* US-Southeast Asia Relations: Conflict in the East; Opportunity in the West, by Sheldon Simon
* China-Southeast Asia Relations: Hu Visits Cambodia as South China Sea Simmers, by Robert Sutter and Chin-Hao Huang
* China-Taiwan Relations: Post-Election Continuity, by David G. Brown
* North Korea-South Korea Relations: Plumbing the Depths, by Aidan Foster-Carter
* China-Korea Relations: China’s Post-Kim Jong Il Debate, by Scott Snyder and See-won Byun
* Japan-China Relations: Happy 40th Anniversary, by James J. Przystup
* Japan-Korea Relations: Sisyphus, by David Kang and Jiun Bang
* China-Russia Relations: Succession, Syria…and the Search for Putin’s Soul, by Yu Bin
 

escobar

Brigadier
China and Iran: Economic, Political, and Military Relations
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Over the past few decades, China and Iran have developed a broad and deep partnership centered on China's energy needs and Iran's abundant resources as well as significant non-energy economic ties, arms sales and defense cooperation, and geostrategic balancing against the United States. This partnership presents a unique challenge to U.S. interests and objectives. In particular, China's policies have hampered U.S. and international efforts to dissuade Iran from developing a nuclear weapons capability. This paper examines factors driving Chinese-Iranian cooperation, potential tensions in the Chinese-Iranian partnership, and U.S. policy options for influencing this partnership to meet U.S. objectives. The authors conclude that the U.S. ability to fundamentally reshape China's relationship with Iran is fairly limited, but that the United States should continue to forestall an Iranian nuclear weapons capability and pressure China to reduce ties to Iran.
 
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