Political and Military Analysis on China

NikeX said:

So from your comments I take it that you are comfortable with China just taking or as you called it "cloning" foreign intellectual property without fairly compensating the creators of this foreign intellectual property. How does that work? Seems one sided to me and judging from the reaction of the world most parties agree.

Here is something else to consider: How can this be a "Chinese century" if China is doing nothing but taking? This is puzzling.

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The century is young. Not so long ago a certain new country called the United States of America was not to dissimilar to China in its IP theft. They are calling it a chinese century because china's still far from developed, and at this stage of its development it's already the second largest economy in the world. It is because china hasn't reached its potential, but has every sign of doing so, that it is being called a chinese century.
China has given up its environment and labour to make cheap products for western consumers for the last twenty years, how is that doing nothing but taking? And since when was IP theft the major point of dispute in trade/industry between china and the rest of the world? Wasn't undervalued currency and a cheap workforce the scapegoats? Not that I'm denying IP theft does exist, but which industries are we talking about? Most of the high tech, (that is, not knock off ipods/phones, luxury items etc) products like high speed rail, were done through agreements with foreign companies of ToT
Of course, the difference between IP theft existing, and what you suggested "By no longer being able to encouraging companies to move factories to China with the lure of plentiful supplies of rare earth elements to where China would to be able to pirate foreign intellectual property, China is the ultimate loser in this turn of events." -- which implies chinese industry would somehow would be unable to survive without IP theft, is both funny and confusing at the same time.

Another implication of that statement (apart from the one about foriegn companies led to china be REMs, which gyj already replied to), is that the foreign IP theft is somehow rampant throughout the country and foreign companies are stupid enough to let the other side in without agreement.

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The subliminal malice in your words are dissappointing.

gjy2105 said:

NikeX and Norfolk both quite obviously worship the act of mental masturbation that wishful non-thinkers often indulge in. There's no real critical thinking involved. Just a rabid hunt for anything that reinforces their preconceived ideological constraints; another form of mental masturbation to pity. I speculate that they are reasonably likely to be poorly educated.

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I wouldnt' be so quick to judge norfolk. But nikex seems quite consistent in his points wrt china across this thread and others. But that's fine, his opinion, expressing it, whatever.

The century is young. Not so long ago a certain new country called the United States of America was not to dissimilar to China in its IP theft. They are calling it a chinese century because china's still far from developed, and at this stage of its development it's already the second largest economy in the world. It is because china hasn't reached its potential, but has every sign of doing so, that it is being called a chinese century.

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China is one of the oldest countries on earth and to compare the United states and China in the way you propose doesn't quite work

China has given up its environment and labour to make cheap products for western consumers for the last twenty years, how is that doing nothing but taking?

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In the process of this manufacturing of cheap products China has gained years of experience in modern design and production methods. This exchange has been a two way street. In fact in many instances the west has trained a Chinese competitor for future markets

I am glad that you are honest enough to admit that foreign IP theft exists in China. The point I seek clarification on is how China can brag how they are going to leap frog the west when they remain mired in knocking off foreign methods and ideas.

Innovation and creativity are possible when people learn to see things in ways others cannot. Technique without vision is meaningless and sometimes a person has to forget what they know if they are going to look at the world with fresh eyes.

How can China look at things with fresh eyes when they are forever taking the ideas of others? Is there a point when China will truly innovate and actually do new original things? Or has that time passed and a generation of Chinese grown up with the method of copying without license ingrained into their very core?

Another implication of that statement (apart from the one about foriegn companies led to china be REMs, which gyj already replied to), is that the foreign IP theft is somehow rampant throughout the country and foreign companies are stupid enough to let the other side in without agreement.

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Many foreign companies are stupid. They will tolerate IP theft in exchange for lower manufacturing prices at the bottom line. The exceptions are people like the Russians who have refused to do business with China in certain products like advanced jet engines and the like. Other companies are seeking non-Chinese manufacturing channels to avoid exposure to Chinese IP theft.

And the other side of the coin is Chinese espionage throughout the world to funnel every secret that can be found back to China. Everyone knows that this exists. The question is why?

So my question still remains: What is there about China to where they have to use methods that take secrets and IP to get ahead?

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Bltizo said:

I wouldnt' be so quick to judge norfolk. But nikex seems quite consistent in his points wrt china across this thread and others. But that's fine, his opinion, expressing it, whatever.

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My questions are honest and directed without malice. I seek to learn certain things about China

NikeX said:

China is one of the oldest countries on earth and to compare the United states and China in the way you propose doesn't quite work

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It works perfectly because China the nation is ancient, while China the state is young. For China, the Communist government is an entirely new form of government immensely different from the Imperial governments it replaces, and it was founded only 63 years ago. The cultural changes within that time compared to the Imperial era before it, are also huge. It is almost a completely new society. The comparison is apt.


EDIT:
Blitzo prefers to use the term "Civilization" where I said "Nation", and "Nation" where I said "State". Different words, different meaning, but the intent was the same...

NikeX said:

China is one of the oldest countries on earth and to compare the United states and China in the way you propose doesn't quite work

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Wrong.
China is one of the oldest *civilisations* on earth. As a nation, the people's republic is very young and not very different in a stage of development or in world standing compared to the united states of a century and something ago.

In the process of this manufacturing of cheap products China has gained years of experience in modern design and production methods. This exchange has been a two way street. In fact in many instances the west has trained a Chinese competitor for future markets

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Exactly. So your statement about china "doing nothing but taking" is ridiculously false.

I am glad that you are honest enough to admit that foreign IP theft exists in China. The point I seek clarification on is how China can brag how they are going to leap frog the west when they remain mired in knocking off foreign methods and ideas.

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The point I seek clarification on is what exactly defines "mired" in knocking off foreign methods and ideas.
Not so long ago korea and japan and long before them, america too were knocking off other people's ideas. There are various reasons why some chinese industries may copy foreign designs more than others (say, automobiles), but in others they are already world leaders and foreign assisatnce (and certainly IP theft) is no longer a factor (telecommunications, shipbuilding, computing, clean energy, etc).

It isn't china which is bragging how they are going to leap frog the west, it is the west who are saying they will leap frog the west.

Innovation and creativity are possible when people learn to see things in ways others cannot. Technique without vision is meaningless and sometimes a person has to forget what they know if they are going to look at the world with fresh eyes.

How can China look at things with fresh eyes when they are forever taking the ideas of others? Is there a point when China will truly innovate and actually do new original things? Or has that time passed and a generation of Chinese grown up with the method of copying without license ingrained into their very core?

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???
"Forever" is a long time, and if you make such a generalization about an entire country's workforce and industry again, I think we may as well just finish the conversation here.
And the onus here is on you to show me which chinese industries partake in so much IP theft, and how that justifies the idea that a majority or even the entire chinese economy is based off IP theft??

You've obviously been unaware of the values the government and country and families has been placing on innovation and more importantly, education.

Many foreign companies are stupid. They will tolerate IP theft in exchange for lower manufacturing prices at the bottom line. The exceptions are people like the Russians who have refused to do business with China in certain products like advanced jet engines and the like. Other companies are seeking non-Chinese manufacturing channels to avoid exposure to Chinese IP theft.

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Transfer of technology as a condition of allowing access to the market is not IP theft. Give me some examples which substantiate your idea that the entire country's industry and economy (or even a majority) is based off IP theft.

And the other side of the coin is Chinese espionage throughout the world to funnel every secret that can be found back to China. Everyone knows that this exists. The question is why?

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Everyone? I certainly do not. Tell me, which instances have this occurred? And how is it that chinese corporate espionage would be so different to that of other countries?

So my question still remains: What is there about China to where they have to use methods that take secrets and IP to get ahead?

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They're not using it to get ahead. They're using it to catch up (again, I refer to US, korea, japan as references)
And you really need to clarify what industries you're talking about where there is so much IP theft, you can't go and imply the chinese economy is somehow reliant on IP theft and then not state which industries they are.

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NikeX said:

My questions are honest and directed without malice. I seek to learn certain things about China

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Then be willing to change your preconceptions.

The use of "nation", "state", "civilization" are very different in other contexts, but they are essentially identical in the case of applying to China. China is very unique compared to Western counterpart. It is a country that is unified by civilization, in this case, actually being civilized, a distinction from barbarians, not by blood, and a nation held together because of its civilization. The shared common culture, customs, language and education resulted from the civility bond it into a nation. Due to the almost eternal unity of this singular nation, it never was not a state, always (almost, with few little exceptions) with a single monarch and one system.

China can be considered to be the longest surviving state in the world. Like the old Chinese proverb, "changing the urn's water while forgetting its herb, essentially making it the same medicine"; although China's civilizations had tens of dynasties and countless houses of rulers, the fundamentals never changed, that is emperor rules with the will and mandate of the heaven. He has the rights to all the land under the sky and he is the ruler to all its people. His government is highly centralized and with each level reporting its superior level, with the emperor at the top of the pyramid. All officials have power over those below them. All of his subjects must swear their allegiance to him and serve the state because of their allegiance to the emperor.

Modern Communist mainland China works the same way. Instead of having one monarch, those nine old men in the politburo as the emperors of modern China. They are worshiped just like the emperors of the empirical China. Everything mentioned in the news has to do with them and their titles are always read in full length, repeated even more than Queen of England's "your majesty". Their approved documents and passed legislative bills are identical to the old "empirical decrees" (圣旨), which must be proceeded and achieved under all means. Just like the emperors, their powers are unlimited, if they want someone dead, it can happen. Their children are vastly powerful, either multi-billionaires (really! in USD too) or already high ranked in the government, soon to inherit their power.

Just like in the empirical army, when you enter the military, you swear your allegiance to the party before you vow your patriotism for the motherland. There are even slogans shouting "love the party more than you love your parents, put the party before the country".

Essentially, modern China is just a revised empirical system with a modern name, called a republic. Instead serving your allegiance to your emperor or your king, you serve your party.

There is a difference: you have a lot less chance of getting retarded emperors that proceed to screw a dynasty up. Also the throne is no longer hereditary.

Is this concept of "One Nation State" ideal now? Perhaps it was in "Ancient Times" BUT no longer relevant from the 20th Century. People everywhere are no longer subservient, that would include the Chinese in China & throughout the world. There should never be absolute control by 1 person or 1 party. If the citizens don't like the leader or the party they should be given the choice of choosing another leader or party. Look at what is happening to most countries with 1-party leadership - Corruption, Nepotism, Autocracy, Bullying, Unfair Legal System etc. etc. Give the people freedom to choose their governments, unless the leadership is afraid to loose power.

advill said:

Is this concept of "One Nation State" ideal now? Perhaps it was in "Ancient Times" BUT no longer relevant from the 20th Century. People everywhere are no longer subservient, that would include the Chinese in China & throughout the world. There should never be absolute control by 1 person or 1 party. If the citizens don't like the leader or the party they should be given the choice of choosing another leader or party. Look at what is happening to most countries with 1-party leadership - Corruption, Nepotism, Autocracy, Bullying, Unfair Legal System etc. etc. Give the people freedom to choose their governments, unless the leadership is afraid to loose power.

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It's more complicated in the way Corporatism often co-opts state mechanisms for corporate interests even at the expense of the public at large in western countries, class warfare at its finest...