PLAN Type 035/039/091/092 Submarine Thread

Ambivalent

Junior Member
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Ok, so you actually know a few things, but what's up with the "I'm right, and if you disagree you're stupid"? It's hardly an attitude to have on a -forum-, which is all about exchanging different ideas and viewpoints.

Now, as have been mentioned earlier SSKs DO have some advantages over SSNs in certain scenarios, especially in tight waters. Don't be so categorical.

Their primary advantage is cost. There is literally nothing an SSK does better than an SSN in any scenario, and quite a few things SSN's can do that no SSK can do.
Having said that, cost is a major consideration. Nations that could never afford even one SSN can afford a small fleet of SSK's, and there are enough situations where an SSK can be a threat to other hostile navies to make the expenditure on SSK's worth what the nation might have to give up to have them. They won't chase a CSG in blue water, they won't outfight an SSN which has a huge underwater speed advantage including the ability to move at tactically useful speeds making about as much noise as that SSK hanging out on battery. They are useful ambush tools but are not good for offensive operations.
But, if they patrol intelligently and use the continental shelf or other constrained waters to their advantage, an enemy just might come to this SSK and give them a good shot. Lesser navies with no carrier and limited ASW helicopter capability might suffer tremendously at the hands of well skippered SSK's.
An example of the transit speed differential. A USN SSN takes about five days to cross the Atlantic while a Dutch Tijgeraai takes around nine to ten days for the same transit, and makes much more noise doing so. No SSK is going to transit non stop from San Diego to the Arab Gulf at 30 kts submerged however. SSN's have done exactly this.
SSK's buy some less wealthy nations limited capabilities that can be worth the expenditure. Just don't fool yourself into thinking you will sweep an ocean going carrier and SSN equipped navy from the high seas with SSK's or even hold them off for very long.
 

no_name

Colonel
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Is there a reason why SSN could not have large batteries and having the option to solely run on them? Or is that wasting space, and the fact that SSN are usually significantly larger means that you need a much larger batteries.
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Is there a reason why SSN could not have large batteries and having the option to solely run on them? Or is that wasting space, and the fact that SSN are usually significantly larger means that you need a much larger batteries.

You can not just turn on and off nuclear reactor especially inside SSN ... it would be a huge task just to turn it off
 

montyp165

Senior Member
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

The closest thing would be to have nuclear powercells like those on space probes, but the power density is lower than that of a reactor.
 

Maggern

Junior Member
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Their primary advantage is cost. There is literally nothing an SSK does better than an SSN in any scenario, and quite a few things SSN's can do that no SSK can do.
Having said that, cost is a major consideration. Nations that could never afford even one SSN can afford a small fleet of SSK's, and there are enough situations where an SSK can be a threat to other hostile navies to make the expenditure on SSK's worth what the nation might have to give up to have them. They won't chase a CSG in blue water, they won't outfight an SSN which has a huge underwater speed advantage including the ability to move at tactically useful speeds making about as much noise as that SSK hanging out on battery. They are useful ambush tools but are not good for offensive operations.
But, if they patrol intelligently and use the continental shelf or other constrained waters to their advantage, an enemy just might come to this SSK and give them a good shot. Lesser navies with no carrier and limited ASW helicopter capability might suffer tremendously at the hands of well skippered SSK's.
An example of the transit speed differential. A USN SSN takes about five days to cross the Atlantic while a Dutch Tijgeraai takes around nine to ten days for the same transit, and makes much more noise doing so. No SSK is going to transit non stop from San Diego to the Arab Gulf at 30 kts submerged however. SSN's have done exactly this.
SSK's buy some less wealthy nations limited capabilities that can be worth the expenditure. Just don't fool yourself into thinking you will sweep an ocean going carrier and SSN equipped navy from the high seas with SSK's or even hold them off for very long.

I stand by tight water navigation. Forgive me for using my own country as a basis again. The rugged Norwegian coastline would be hard to navigate for a large, lumbering SSN. THe speed issue would be irrelevant. In open ocean, I wouldn't put my money on any SSK, but then SSKs could sit and wait in chokepoints and patrol close to land and take out amphibious landing groups or other shipping passing by. At NATO exercises in North Norway, involving an amphibious landing, NATO SSKs managed to "take out" large amphibious ships, and IIRC a carrier, and the fleet was unable to take out the SSKs for some time.

They do have their use, and yes, cost is at their side as well.
 

Ambivalent

Junior Member
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

You can not just turn on and off nuclear reactor especially inside SSN ... it would be a huge task just to turn it off

Battery current cannot begin to match the energy available from nuclear propulsion. Even with turbine electric drive, the output of a generator driven off a steam turbine is going to be orders of magnitude greater than the energy battery current could generate. Nuclear boats are much faster under water than any diesel electric boat. Most boats, however, drive the propeller shaft directly off the reduction gears rather than by an electric motor.
Electric motors are not as quiet as people imagine either, particularly when they are making big power. They also get hot and require cooling, meaning noisy pumps are involved unless speeds are kept very low. Some of you ought to get a job working around heavy machinery and see how much noise a big electric motor makes.
You can scram a reactor under water and restart it. Happens often enough in service. There are batteries and a diesel generator for such emergencies, though you have to snorkel or surface to use the diesel.
 
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adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

The longest range subs from WW2 era was probably Japan's I-400 (~70,000 km) and Germany's Type IXC/40 (~47,450 km). In comparison, the Kilo has range of ~12,000 km?

As for cost, a new Kilo or Type 209 today will run $300-$350 million, vs. Scorpène class at $450-$500 million each. I'm not aware of recent SSN sales, but the Russian (10 year contract) lease of K-152 to India was reported to be $900 million.
 
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Riverman

New Member
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

The longest range subs from WW2 era was probably Japan's I-400 (~70,000 km) and Germany's Type IXC/40 (~47,450 km). In comparison, the Kilo has range of ~12,000 km?

As for cost, a new Kilo or Type 209 today will run $300-$350 million, vs. Scorpène class at $450-$500 million each. I'm not aware of recent SSN sales, but the Russian (10 year contract) lease of K-152 to India was reported to be $900 million.

Well you can get a Gotland class for less then 250 million.
 
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