PLAN Type 035/039/091/092 Submarine Thread

[Ambivalent]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Gotland ring any bells?

SSKs are hardly as one-dimensional and as easily countered you some would like people to think.

They don't have the speed and endurance to chase down surface ships and sink them with 'fish', but with sub launched AShMs, you don't have to.

SSKs can also be very dangerous to SSNs traversing to their station by hiding in chock points or good navigation routes.

Also, remember that there are more than one way to kill an enemy. You do not have to hunt the CSG down. An SSK can quietly trudge its way behind hostile 'lines' and attack support ships; set up mine fields near enemy ports, or even attack those ports and munitions stores with cruise missiles etc.

SSKs definitely have their uses.

I'm well aware of Gotland. It was in San Diego for two years. Keep in mind Gotland had to be transported to San Diego in the well deck of a civilian ship. It couldn't make the transit from Sweden to San Diego on it's own. SSN's have no such limitations.

All your arguments support what I said, namely that SS's are good for barrier operations where high speed and silent mobility are not required.

As for the SS quietly trudging away behind enemy lines, nothing a diesel boat does on diesel is quiet, and it isn't going very far or very quickly on AIP or battery. Once they light off the diesel the skipper might as well surface with a megaphone and announce his position.

 

[Riverman]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

I'm well aware of Gotland. It was in San Diego for two years. Keep in mind Gotland had to be transported to San Diego in the well deck of a civilian ship. It couldn't make the transit from Sweden to San Diego on it's own. SSN's have no such limitations.

All your arguments support what I said, namely that SS's are good for barrier operations where high speed and silent mobility are not required.

As for the SS quietly trudging away behind enemy lines, nothing a diesel boat does on diesel is quiet, and it isn't going very far or very quickly on AIP or battery. Once they light off the diesel the skipper might as well surface with a megaphone and announce his position.

I think I remember reading about a Chines Song class submarine surfacing close to a US carriergroup not to long ago. The americans was mutch suprised.

 

[Blitzo]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

I think I remember reading about a Chines Song class submarine surfacing close to a US carriergroup not to long ago. The americans was mutch suprised.

Oh come on, don't bring this up again...

 

[Spartan95]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

I'm well aware of Gotland. It was in San Diego for two years. Keep in mind Gotland had to be transported to San Diego in the well deck of a civilian ship. It couldn't make the transit from Sweden to San Diego on it's own.

That may well be a matter of choice rather than a reflection on the Gotland's lack of capability to do the transit on her own.

Take for instance the Malaysian Scorpene that sailed from France back to Malaysia on her own:

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Malaysia’s first sub arrives after 54-day journey from France
By EDWARD RAJENDRA


PORT KLANG: Malaysia’s first submarine, the KD Tunku Abdul Rahman (TAR), sailed into our shores after a 54-day journey from Toulon, France.

Yang di-Pertuan Agong Tuanku Mizan Zainal Abidin witnessed the arrival of the 67.5m-long submarine, the pride of the Royal Malaysian Navy, at Pulau Indah here at 9.18am yesterday. It can dive to 350m.

Close to 300 people watched in awe as KD TAR was brought to the dock by two tugboats Splendor and Scorpio at the KD Sultan Abdul Aziz Shah naval base in Pulau Indah.


Yang di-Pertuan Agong Tuanku Mizan Zainal Abidin going down the hatch to check out the new vessel.
Crew members outside the submarine hatch waved to the eager crowd who were captivated by the shiny black vessel as it docked alongside the jetty at 9.18am.

“Our nation’s move to acquire the submarine will give the navy greater and more effective control over our waters.

“Our Government is taking action to protect our shoreline from threats, and this submarine being our first gives a credible boost to our naval forces within the region,” said Tuanku Mizan.

Also present was Sultan of Selangor Sultan Sharafuddin Idris Shah, Prime Minister Datuk Seri Najib Tun Razak and Raja Muda of Selangor Tengku Amir Shah.


Getting the feel of it: (From right) Tuanku Mizan, Sultan Sharafuddin, Najib and Tengku Amir Shah taking a closer look at the submarine.

All 32 crew members have been trained on a four-year course in maintenance, operations, submersion techniques and overcoming challenging situations.

Over the 54 days, the KD TAR has been taken to depths of 350m to test the submarine and at the same time acclimatise the crew to such depths.

KD TAR will be at Port Klang overnight before leaving for the Lumut naval base and to its final duty station in Sepanggar naval base in Sabah.

The submarine is equipped with six torpedo tubes which can fire simultaneously; anti-ship surface missiles and anti-submarine torpedoes.

Tuanku Mizan said operating a submarine in the navy was a welcome force-multiplier, as the craft would help secure the movement of ships and affirm Malaysian sovereignty in its waters.


“A submarine is a sophisticated asset and it must be used to advance the nation’s naval force to ensure a sustainable and comprehensive approach to protect our seas,” said Tuanku Mizan.

All 32 members of the KD TAR crew were congratulated by Tuanku Mizan.

Defence Minister Datuk Seri Ahmad Zahid Hamidi said the new initiative to strengthen the navy was chiefly to protect Malaysian waters, build a naval network with neighbouring countries, and better anticipate the impacts of changing maritime traffic requiring safe routes.

The submarine project began when Malaysia signed a deal to purchase two submarines in 2002.

It wasn't a 1 off either. The 2nd Malaysian Scorpene repeated the feat.

Also, I'm pretty sure the Australian Collins class roam around the Indian Ocean. They have also been deployed for exercises in Southeast Asia for exercises, and they get there on their own power.

 

[Pointblank]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

I think I remember reading about a Chines Song class submarine surfacing close to a US carriergroup not to long ago. The americans was mutch suprised.

The problem is that the US Carrier Group were engaged in exercises in a fixed location. Cardinal rule of naval warfare; if you lock someone into a fixed pattern for extended periods, eventually, someone can easily ambush them based upon that pattern.

That may well be a matter of choice rather than a reflection on the Gotland's lack of capability to do the transit on her own.

Take for instance the Malaysian Scorpene that sailed from France back to Malaysia on her own:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

It wasn't a 1 off either. The 2nd Malaysian Scorpene repeated the feat.

Also, I'm pretty sure the Australian Collins class roam around the Indian Ocean. They have also been deployed for exercises in Southeast Asia for exercises, and they get there on their own power.

The problem is speed. Most diesel electric subs can reach their cruising speed only via the electric motor, and due to the limitations of the battery size, they cannot sustain that speed for long. Recharging speed for conventional subs are often in the single digits of knots. In other words, transits can take a long time.

 

[Riverman]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Oh come on, don't bring this up again...

Bring what up again?

 

[Blitzo]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Bring what up again?

The Song class which surfaced near the Kitty Hawk. It's been debated to death here on this forum :/

 

[Spartan95]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

The problem is speed. Most diesel electric subs can reach their cruising speed only via the electric motor, and due to the limitations of the battery size, they cannot sustain that speed for long. Recharging speed for conventional subs are often in the single digits of knots. In other words, transits can take a long time.

Certainly speed is a limitation for diesel subs as compared to SSNs. That doesn't mean they are unable to make long transits though, which was the point I was addressing in my post.

As for speed limitation, it will have to be taken into account when deploying the subs. Just like how the Imperial Japanese Navy did during WWII when they deployed midget subs to Pearl Harbour during the sneak attack.

 

[Galrahn]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Certainly speed is a limitation for diesel subs as compared to SSNs. That doesn't mean they are unable to make long transits though, which was the point I was addressing in my post.

Submarines make long transits on the surface, which is what the Malaysian submarines did. Submarines made long deployments during WWII, the suggestion that SSKs can't transit long distances is a myth. It can be done, but is not combat effective.

The Gotland didn't because it was less expensive to carry the submarine than sail her to the Pacific from Sweden. The Gotland class has a range of about 2000nm, while the Scorpines can go 8 knots for 6500 nautical miles on the surface. For context, more than one serious DoD study has shown that the Type 212/214, for example, which has a range of 8000 nautical miles (simi-surfaced), might be the most cost effective long range small combat vessel in the world because of it's extremely long range, small crew, and deadly submarine combat capability.

The most capable conventional submarines in the world are the Collins class and Sōryū class (16SS) submarines, and anyone who says otherwise will lack the credentials to back up their claims. They are unlike other SSKs though, they are built as conventional fleet submarines where virtually every other modern SSK class is built as a littoral submarine (including Type 212/214). It is no accident both classes are also some of the largest SSKs and can output more power submerged than other SSKs.

It is no accident that the new PLA Navy SSKs are getting larger. The Yuan, and whatever this new class is that has Lada class features are both large fleet submarine designs. The Yuan class is designed to operate forward as far as places like Hawaii - not in the near island chains.

As for speed limitation, it will have to be taken into account when deploying the subs. Just like how the Imperial Japanese Navy did during WWII when they deployed midget subs to Pearl Harbour during the sneak attack.

Speed is about more than endurance - speed in underwater combat is life. The advantage of speed for a submarine is both strategic and tactical, and it is what makes nuclear submarines the most dangerous hunters in the oceans today. Anyone who claims they would take a modern SSK over a modern SSN has a severe misunderstanding of how submarines fight.

 

[Maggern]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Submarines make long transits on the surface, which is what the Malaysian submarines did. Submarines made long deployments during WWII, the suggestion that SSKs can't transit long distances is a myth. It can be done, but is not combat effective.

The Gotland didn't because it was less expensive to carry the submarine than sail her to the Pacific from Sweden. The Gotland class has a range of about 2000nm, while the Scorpines can go 8 knots for 6500 nautical miles on the surface. For context, more than one serious DoD study has shown that the Type 212/214, for example, which has a range of 8000 nautical miles (simi-surfaced), might be the most cost effective long range small combat vessel in the world because of it's extremely long range, small crew, and deadly submarine combat capability.

The most capable conventional submarines in the world are the Collins class and Sōryū class (16SS) submarines, and anyone who says otherwise will lack the credentials to back up their claims. They are unlike other SSKs though, they are built as conventional fleet submarines where virtually every other modern SSK class is built as a littoral submarine (including Type 212/214). It is no accident both classes are also some of the largest SSKs and can output more power submerged than other SSKs.

It is no accident that the new PLA Navy SSKs are getting larger. The Yuan, and whatever this new class is that has Lada class features are both large fleet submarine designs. The Yuan class is designed to operate forward as far as places like Hawaii - not in the near island chains.



Speed is about more than endurance - speed in underwater combat is life. The advantage of speed for a submarine is both strategic and tactical, and it is what makes nuclear submarines the most dangerous hunters in the oceans today. Anyone who claims they would take a modern SSK over a modern SSN has a severe misunderstanding of how submarines fight.

Ok, so you actually know a few things, but what's up with the "I'm right, and if you disagree you're stupid"? It's hardly an attitude to have on a -forum-, which is all about exchanging different ideas and viewpoints.

Now, as have been mentioned earlier SSKs DO have some advantages over SSNs in certain scenarios, especially in tight waters. Don't be so categorical.