PLAN Type 035/039/091/092 Submarine Thread

[paintgun]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

I am constantly visiting this forum since I joined & what I notice is that people are unnecessary arguing on the authentication of some PICs or statements for long & then start believing.

Such as when J10B or J20 appeared in blurry PICs people start saying PS...

laughable you are trying to connect two different and separate issues

this is OT and will be my last comment on it, you are simply stating unfounded rumor

 

[timepass]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

laughable you are trying to connect two different and separate issues

this is OT and will be my last comment on it, you are simply stating unfounded rumor

I am not mixing the 2 different issues instead pointing towards the general mind set of the forum.

 

[tphuang]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Acoustic signal management as a matter of point is also a significant factor in automobiles too, because the clatter of moving parts in the powertrain of a car not only transmits undesirable sound to the passenger compartment (comparable to a ship or sub), but also adds undesirable resonant wear and tear on engine/transmission components. The more inherently quieter a powertrain system is, the more reliable it is as a result. That's why I feel that a focus on increasing propulsion reliability in Chinese subs will also pay major dividends in the silencing department too.

The amount of quieting work done on submarine cannot be compared to that of cars.

I thought Yuan is build upon what they learned from Kilo, which China had since the 90s, and Qing is build upon Yuan, so don't you think Qing is much more comparable to modern diesel subs? After all Kilo is 80s technology.

Or is that in your opinion that the latest Japan diesel sub Sōryū class is only comparable to Russia's 80s Kilo quieting technology?

Again, I'm not an expert in this area, but I don't think you can automatically assume Yuan is quieter than kilo. If you look at PLAN designation of 039 for Song and 039A for Yuan, you'd see that these are not necessarily generational advancements in submarine technology. If you just look at the hull themselves, You can see incremental improvements from original song, to second batch song to the final batch of song to the first 4 039A to the 039B right now. How much quieter is 039B over the final batch of Song. I really can't tell you that. Yuan has many advantages over kilo in terms of its electronics, sonar and weaponry, but just looking at those side by side, it seems to me that kilo's hull looks better from stealth point of view. Of course, this doesn't account for the better engine on Yuan or the possibly better anechoic tiles and propeller.

As for "Qing", it looks to be completely new design. I don't think you can compare it to Yuan. We are going to have to wait for the mass produced version of the next PLAN series of submarine to see where it's at. I don't think you can assume it will be at the level of Oyashio or Soryu class.

And from what I read so far, here is the assumption that I know of.

1. Diesel subs's quieting technology is not worse than nuclear sub, especially when operating near Asia's shallow waters, however diesel lack endurance because it just don't have enough fuel, and it maybe much more louder than nuclear sub when going fast.

2. China's latest diesel sub the Qing class is comparable to Japan and German latest generation sub, they all uses the same generation of technology such as AIP, but they are probably not as refined, just like how 052C's AESA is ahead of DDG51's PESA, but the processing power is still not as good as Burks, however they are comparable in the technology.

3. China's nuclear sub are very much lacking due to their lack of experience with nuclear reactors, and this technology is not easily learned because it has very little dual use technology which China can import, so they can only research it on their own, even if they have all the modern technology and tools, it will still take countless man hours to design and test.

So if the above assumption are true, then why is China not mass producing diesel subs like they are doing with 052A frigs? They only need to operate in Asia water to defend their interest, which unlike US with it's nuclear subs are designed to go all over the world.

Of course, submarines are top secret technology, but from what we can gather from open sources, please correct me if anyone think any of those assumptions are false.

I don't know where these open sources you read are, but all of us are really just amateurs. So if you got that from reading this forum, then you really shouldn't accept them as facts. The only open professional source we have are what ONI posts and I think you will get very disappointed from reading that.

i think tphuang suggests that the birth of the Qing class is not as an incremental improvement class over the Yuan, but as a one off test boat for sub launched ballistic missiles

it might just be comparable to the Yuans, albeit with modifications to fulfill that role

that assertion can be disproved by PLAN adopting Qing class as the next generation diesel submarine class and mass producing them

I don't know, I originally thought it was going to be a new class, but there seems to be an overwhelmingly selection of posters that I respect on Chinese bbs who points to it being a one off boat to replace No. 200. And the entire Qing name is given by Internet warriors rather than PLA's own designation.

There is one more aspect in Qing Class SSK development is..PN involvement..

PN is very actively involve at current in Qing Class project by putting their extensive input which they gathered from U-214 & Merlin (such as Fuel Cells/AIP etc) which were remains on offer to PN for several years & PN had a very good look at these SSKs from inside out but PN went for Chinese project due to “strings attached”

im talking about informal interview posted by Pakistan defense forum member with PAF officers about the JF-17 developments and J-10 procurement progress, which was then solidly confirmed by a magazine publication with details of JF-17 block II by PAF high ranking officers months later

that is the sort of information you want to bring to confirm something of such a tall order as you suggested

If you ask PLAN submarine designers about "Qing class", they probably will have no clue what you are talking about. It's a made up name by people at CDF. It really doesn't even get used on Chinese military bbs. Somehow it got picked up by PN fanboys when it first came out and the news of PN purchasing Chinese sub came out, so now this mysterious Qing class suddenly became a PN submarine. More likely than not, 039B is what PN will get. I know who you are talking about, but I'm highly suspective of anything he says about Pakistan having some kind of access to all classified Chinese projects. If you listen to him, the existence of China only seems to serve and produce for Pakistan

 

[franco-russe]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Eminently sensible assessments.

 

[montyp165]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

The amount of quieting work done on submarine cannot be compared to that of cars.

As a model of implementation it is as close as the layman will get to that, surface ships are closer still to subs in that aspect, but the point still remains that acoustic resonance reduction simultaneously impacts reliability and acoustic projection.

Again, I'm not an expert in this area, but I don't think you can automatically assume Yuan is quieter than kilo. If you look at PLAN designation of 039 for Song and 039A for Yuan, you'd see that these are not necessarily generational advancements in submarine technology. If you just look at the hull themselves, You can see incremental improvements from original song, to second batch song to the final batch of song to the first 4 039A to the 039B right now. How much quieter is 039B over the final batch of Song. I really can't tell you that. Yuan has many advantages over kilo in terms of its electronics, sonar and weaponry, but just looking at those side by side, it seems to me that kilo's hull looks better from stealth point of view. Of course, this doesn't account for the better engine on Yuan or the possibly better anechoic tiles and propeller.

As for "Qing", it looks to be completely new design. I don't think you can compare it to Yuan. We are going to have to wait for the mass produced version of the next PLAN series of submarine to see where it's at. I don't think you can assume it will be at the level of Oyashio or Soryu class.

Given both the points of the PLAN studying the Kilo design plus the rapid improvements in design and construction capability of Chinese shipbuilding I think it is perfectly reasonable to make the assessment that the Yuan is quieter than the Kilo. Since the "Qing" class is really not certain if it is a mass production model or a one-off replacement, its status is up in the air, but my feeling is any mass-production follow-on would be on par with the Oyashio or Soryuu class. These may be just my 2 cents, but I would definitely be willing to bet on this assessment regardless.

 

[Yorkie]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Given both the points of the PLAN studying the Kilo design plus the rapid improvements in design and construction capability of Chinese shipbuilding I think it is perfectly reasonable to make the assessment that the Yuan is quieter than the Kilo. Since the "Qing" class is really not certain if it is a mass production model or a one-off replacement, its status is up in the air, but my feeling is any mass-production follow-on would be on par with the Oyashio or Soryuu class. These may be just my 2 cents, but I would definitely be willing to bet on this assessment regardless.

It's a bit dangerous to assume construction capability equates to overall ability to surpass a given design. Using your car analogy, mastering production of cars do not automatically mean having the ability to come up with a superior design of new cars. What I think is more sensible to say is that the Yuan is comparable to the later Kilo (i.e. 636). By comparable I mean close enough to matter one way or another. In the overall scheme of things, what's a couple of dB in broadband noise among friends?

But on a more serious note, SSK while on battery is so quiet that it's safe to assume both designs share the same amount of stealth effectiveness, given the tear drop shape hull, and no obvious flow noise maker (like a stepped sail of the first Song). Unfortunately only PLAN and perhaps plus the USN have the answsers, but neither of them is talking so we just don't know!

What I do agree with you a great deal on is the notion of late comer's advantage, but in counter detection capability. Assuming the Chinese engineers figure out how to make hydrophones as well as or better than the Russians did in the 80's (which they should), the great leap in Yuan should rest in its sonar signal processing capabilities, given the advancement in computing power and other electronis in the last 20 years. Another huge advantage in Yuan is its optics, again given recent advancement in low light and thermal imaging.

A sub's effectiveness is not just in its stealth (though most critical), but also lies in its ability to detect and counter detect. So overall, I do believe the Yuan is a more capable platform than the imported Kilo's. If that assessment is correct, then a Yuan has several times the capability than a Kilo against a nuke boat in littoral water ( the difference being narrow band sound signal processing, which translates into earlier detection and ultimately, live or death).

 

[jackliu]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

But it has also been suggested that US have decades of anti sub experience, they have signature of almost every type of subs out there, as well as better understanding of all parts of world's ocean. On the reverse, we don't know if China was ever able to track down a US sub and record down it's acoustics sounds or not.

But the general consensus is that diesel sub are extremely quite when going very slow, that means before any potential conflict break out, China and Japan have to already positioned it is sub at the staging area where conflict is expected to happen in advance.

 

[montyp165]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

But it has also been suggested that US have decades of anti sub experience, they have signature of almost every type of subs out there, as well as better understanding of all parts of world's ocean. On the reverse, we don't know if China was ever able to track down a US sub and record down it's acoustics sounds or not.

But the general consensus is that diesel sub are extremely quite when going very slow, that means before any potential conflict break out, China and Japan have to already positioned it is sub at the staging area where conflict is expected to happen in advance.

The Soviet experience is still instructive for the PRC to learn from, as they faced an experienced USN in ASW yet still developed a sophisticated approach that can still counterforce the US fleet where necessary. Persistent development does pay off in spades.

 

[tphuang]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

As a model of implementation it is as close as the layman will get to that, surface ships are closer still to subs in that aspect, but the point still remains that acoustic resonance reduction simultaneously impacts reliability and acoustic projection.

The noise level of sea wolf is circulated to be 95 db around public sources (i'm guessing at low speed). The noise level of ambient sea water in open water is in the 80s db or 90 db (depending on who you believe). Based on logarithmic scale, the noise level of sea wolf is anywhere from 3 times to 10 times that of ambient sea water. For the most stealthy diesel submarines out there like Collins class or Soryu class, that's probably their noise level when they are traveling at below 5 knots. Even aside from my points about how submariners have been judging stealth of submarines purely based on picture of the submarines, just think about how much can the engine noise really contribute when the overall noise level could be as low as 3 times as loud as ambient sea water.

Given both the points of the PLAN studying the Kilo design plus the rapid improvements in design and construction capability of Chinese shipbuilding I think it is perfectly reasonable to make the assessment that the Yuan is quieter than the Kilo. Since the "Qing" class is really not certain if it is a mass production model or a one-off replacement, its status is up in the air, but my feeling is any mass-production follow-on would be on par with the Oyashio or Soryuu class. These may be just my 2 cents, but I would definitely be willing to bet on this assessment regardless.

Why is it perfectly reasonable? Have you looked at the improved Song and the Yuan submarines. Where do you see the generational improvement in stealth? Look at the new ssk, it still makes uses of basically kilo's sail (although more hydrodynamically shaped).

 

[montyp165]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Why is it perfectly reasonable? Have you looked at the improved Song and the Yuan submarines. Where do you see the generational improvement in stealth? Look at the new ssk, it still makes uses of basically kilo's sail (although more hydrodynamically shaped).

Even if the Yuan were a warmed over mod of the Kilo the improvements in Chinese manufacturing would allow for tighter tolerances and better machinery than the original (and historically Chinese derivatives of Soviet originals are worked to improve upon the originals), plus each succeeding sub has been modified and improved from the previous one. The PLAN was confident enough on the design not to order any more 636 Kilos and has built 7 Yuans, while the Russian Navy refuses to have any more than the 1 Lada design and buys more Kilos.