PLAN Supersonic Anti-Ship Missiles

Sea Dog said:

There is nothing that indicates that China has mastered the technology themselves. And there is still no real evidence that they will deploy with an HTGR. ... etc ... China's doing nothing new here that the USA hasn't done 20 years or more ago.

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Germany is the acknowledged leader in HTGR. China's HTGR is based on the German design. China is currently in the process of building 2nd generation 100 MW HTGR. China's 1st generation 10 MW HTGR has already passed the critical "thermal runaway meltdown" test. HTGR has 2 advantages over conventional reactor in 1. higher thermodynamic efficiency-more power, 2. almost impossible for a Chernobyl type accident(nuclear meltdown) to occurred. If the 2nd generation 100 MW works out well, then China will probably build all or at least most of her commercial nuclear power plants based on HTGR technology. As far as military application is concerned, HTGR looks mighty good in a sub ...:coffee:

Sea Dog said:

There is nothing that indicates that China has mastered the technology themselves. And there is still no real evidence that they will deploy with an HTGR. The US has apparently been working with this technology before China even started any modernization efforts. Just because the US hasn't fielded it in subs doesn't mean they can't. In fact, the USA fielded liquid-metal reactors before Russia, and decided they had more drawbacks than their speed advantages gave them. The Soviets came to the same conclusion later. US DOE has this HTGR technology working...right now. But still, USN nuclear subs still see better 'advantages' in their water-cooled/natural circulation designs. China's doing nothing new here that the USA hasn't done 20 years or more ago.

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wrong. dont keep believing that the u.s simply must have everything simply becasue its the u.s. one of the reasons the u.s fears china using htgr technology is that it is very difficult to master. it was under development in the ussr for 30 years, and under intensive development in china for 10. the u.s has only been at it for 15 years. logically, how could the u.s be AHEAD of china, especially when china had contracted thousands of ex soviet engineers to produce the engine?

the u.s doe does not have a working htgr engine, at least not one capable of powering a sub. of course their are still advantages to u.s engines, including noise reduction. all i said was that the chinese engine allowed for more speed.

tphuang said:

I guess we will have to see whether the rumour about HTGR turns out to be true or not. For China's sake, I hope it is true. The problem with China's system is that it's so secretive (duh!) and strategic weapons like 093 is even more secretive.

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Due to the PLA's secretive behaviour, the USA has been demanding "transparency" of China's military capabilities. But i do believe that the Type 093 is actually exceeding the performance of the Victor III. I predict that the Type 093 has the noise level of a Russian Severodvinsk SSN, and the only SSN in the Russian Navy better than the Severodvinsk are the Akula II class.

I thought this was a missile thread?

MISSILES! NOT SUBS!

Sea Dog said:

It looks like the USA has done considerable work in this area:

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Since the US uses water-cooled reactors with natural circulation(and don't appear to want to change), I believe they get better results (efficiency)than with anything inherent in High Temp. Gas Cooled applications.

It says here the DOE has been utilizing this technology since at least 1987. It's nothing new at all. I agree with Gauntlet, I doubt highly that 093 will be anywhere near an Akula-I in quieting and endurance, much less a 688(I). Don't even try to say it comes anywhere near Virginia, Seawolf, or the British Trafalgar upgraded SSN's.

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The doe is not very special now days

sea dog if your are trying to promote us liquid metal cooled reator then you might want to do some reaserach apart a few experimental reactor in the 50s witch were pathetic there is no major use right

alos just because the us does not want the gas cool reactor does not mean water cooled are better. historcaly american subs are much slower then Russian ones water cool is for quietness not speed

material tech nedded for gas cool reactor is difficult for the USSR and right very few country has this tech

MIGGY

65-76 is not used by china as they requir a 650mm tube currently china does not have any

TO ALL

no the 093 will not be a victory 3 sub china has master that long ago
even the old Han is on par wih the victory-I

the the victory _II is just improved to fire ss-n-15/16

the victory -II has limited noise reduction improvement but suffered from a poor propeller design EARLY ONES DONT EVEN HAVE NOISE REDUCTION TILES .

also the bow plan arrangement on the victory produce more noise then desiered

the speed of the 093 is probely more on par with the Alfla class

noise is about that of a AKULA -2/improved LA

MIGleader said:

wrong. dont keep believing that the u.s simply must have everything simply becasue its the u.s. one of the reasons the u.s fears china using htgr technology is that it is very difficult to master. it was under development in the ussr for 30 years, and under intensive development in china for 10. the u.s has only been at it for 15 years. logically, how could the u.s be AHEAD of china, especially when china had contracted thousands of ex soviet engineers to produce the engine?

the u.s doe does not have a working htgr engine, at least not one capable of powering a sub. of course their are still advantages to u.s engines, including noise reduction. all i said was that the chinese engine allowed for more speed.

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The problem is, they do have working models at Idaho National Lab and Oak Ridge National Lab. The US has made considerable headway in this type of reactor(HTGR). Apparently the US has made alot of headway in VHTR's and BWR's as well. China contracting ex-Soviet engineers doesn't mean much at all. There's alot of technology that these same ex-Soviet engineers tried to copy from the West....and failed. As a matter of fact, much of their progress in submarine reactor design and control came directly from the Walker spy ring (Western tech). That is documented.

As far as 093 goes, we'll see. But the fact that China won't even show a picture of this new sub may be an indication that things are not going as expected.



America has a new generation submarine, and isn't afraid to show it. The picture above shows the new Virginia SSN. Likely the best in the world. This picture betrays no secrets. Why can't China do the same? We've even seen some interior pictures of Seawolf and Virginia. There are pictures of the latest Seawolf (Carter) and Virginia SSN's going out to sea. There are pictures of christening ceremonies here. And yet US sub secrets still remain safe. At some point you have to say..."show me, don't tell me".

@darth sidious - Don't get your hopes too high. China's only example of domestic nuclear sub is the noisy HAN SSN. China still hasn't proven she's gotten past this yet. Again, contracting Russian engineers doesn't give you magical abilities. As has been demonstrated in the past. There are rumors that a 093 underwent sea trials not too long ago. But that was a while back. And they were only rumors. It would be nice to see anything regarding this program.

america has made VERY little headway. chinese scientists have the wealth and knoledge of soviets backing them. they worked on it jointly for 10 years. america has only has a very slow research programm for a few years.
DONT YOU DARE SAY THE SOVIETS COPIED THE AMERICANS!!! the soviets started 25 years ahead of the americans.

the spy ring was documented, but its applications are not. dont make assumptions from it.

actually, there is a very small picture of the 93 in strategycenter. two have been lauched, with a third one building.

Virginia the best? At what?

If anything, Sea Wolf is STILL king.

Sea Dog said:

@darth sidious - Don't get your hopes too high. China's only example of domestic nuclear sub is the noisy HAN SSN. China still hasn't proven she's gotten past this yet. Again, contracting Russian engineers doesn't give you magical abilities. As has been demonstrated in the past. There are rumors that a 093 underwent sea trials not too long ago. But that was a while back. And they were only rumors. It would be nice to see anything regarding this program.

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this is not the cold war china is not desperate to show off military tech
in fact the less people know about it the better as it will be a nasty surpise for the enemy in time of war "the enemy only sees what the motherland want it to see"

the 093 was delayed because in the 80s funding went to civilian sector insted for military research

NO russian sub are not based of copyed tech apart from the november in the late 50s

the walker spy ring told the russian the Victory-II is too noisey but not how to improve it

MIGleader said:

america has made VERY little headway. chinese scientists have the wealth and knoledge of soviets backing them. they worked on it jointly for 10 years. america has only has a very slow research programm for a few years.
DONT YOU DARE SAY THE SOVIETS COPIED THE AMERICANS!!! the soviets started 25 years ahead of the americans.

the spy ring was documented, but its applications are not. dont make assumptions from it.

actually, there is a very small picture of the 93 in strategy page. two have been lauched, with a third one building.

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The US noted better noise levels in russian subs immediately after the spy ring was found out. It's easy to draw the conclusions here. Reactor technology is something that the USA has outclassed the Russians in for a long time. Hello Chernobyl. Right now, the USA has HTGR's and various other reacotr designs. And the DOE has an established track record of over 20 years here on HTGR's. China does not. Russia has had documented reactor problems. America's have been minor by comparison. China's reliant on technology from foreign sources here. America is ahead here for sure. The Germans probably lead the world, but it's looking like America is not far behind.

I've seen that picture and you can't ascertain anything from it. It's fuzzy and could likely be purposely blurred and photoshopped. Not the realimagery you see of Virginia, Seawolf, Trafalgar.

darth sidious said:

this is not the cold war china is not desperate to show off military tech
in fact the less people know about it the better as it will be a nasty surpise for the enemy in time of war "the enemy only sees what the motherland want it to see"

the 093 was delayed because in the 80s funding went to civilian sector insted for military research

NO russian sub are not based of copyed tech apart from the november in the late 50s

the walker spy ring told the russian the Victory-II is too noisey but not how to improve it

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If you can't show it, you can't brag about it.